0:00

It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Thorot's here. Richard Campbell's

0:02

here. We're going to talk about the implosion at

0:05

Intel rave reviews for the

0:07

new chips from AMD. Paul's

0:09

got some thoughts about the co-pilot

0:12

Plus PCs at Snapdragon. And

0:14

it's the return of WordStar. I know you've been

0:16

waiting for it. All that coming up next on

0:19

Windows Weekly. Podcasts

0:23

you love. From people you

0:25

trust. This

0:28

is Twitch. This

0:35

is Windows Weekly with Paul Thorot and

0:37

Richard Campbell. Episode 893 recorded Wednesday, August

0:40

7, 2024. The

0:45

WordStar look. It's

0:48

time for Windows Weekly, the show we

0:50

cover the latest news from Microsoft and

0:53

joining me in the

0:55

little tiny boxes to my left

0:57

and right, Paul Thorot from thorot.com.

1:00

Do you feel cramped in your little tiny box? I'm

1:02

feeling boxed in today, Leo. Enough

1:06

about a three shot. Three shot makes me happy.

1:08

And Richard Campbell. Yeah, we actually can do up

1:10

to eight if you want to invite some friends.

1:12

Look at one, CNN. From

1:14

Runners Radio. This is the new method.

1:17

You might as well get used to it,

1:19

kids, because there's no more old method after

1:22

today. This is the last Windows Weekly from

1:24

the site studios. Here we go. Up

1:27

into the attic. I have taken. You

1:30

know, it's funny. I have, I

1:32

don't know, a few awards. It's

1:35

eight or nine. And I was going

1:37

to leave them here. And then

1:39

slowly, one by one, I've got like, you know,

1:41

like Steve Martin. I can't. But

1:44

all I need is this. Well, I need this. So

1:46

I've brought them all home. And now there's a

1:48

shelf, which I always said I would never do

1:50

of awards. I

1:55

don't think much of this kind of stuff, my stuff, this

1:58

stuff myself, but my wife got a. writing

2:00

award a couple of years ago. That's cool. And

2:02

I said, my daughter was like,

2:04

oh, that's really, that's really impressive. I'm like, yeah, I mean,

2:06

it's, it's probably just a

2:09

coincidence that came eight or nine years after I got one,

2:11

but. It's. And

2:13

then, and I said, I

2:15

said, oh, there's a little rival. Do they make them?

2:17

I was like, do they make them smaller now? My

2:20

award is quite a bit bigger. Yeah,

2:24

I have an Emmy, but it's the little Emmy. I

2:28

have the, there's a, there's a regular Emmy,

2:30

which is pretty massive with a big

2:32

thing. And then I have a regional Emmy

2:35

award, which is like this. Compact.

2:38

It's, I have the comms with the region.

2:41

Yeah. I even brought

2:43

my Ziff Davis editors, or what

2:45

was it? Was a publisher

2:48

circle or a chairman circle back

2:50

when it was when

2:52

the chairman was, oh, I can't remember his

2:55

name now. Ziff or Davis. It

2:57

wasn't, it was after Bill Ziff. Oh,

3:00

I forgotten his name, which is probably a blessing. Um,

3:04

I have a tech TV award. I mean, I

3:07

go, wait, I, these awards go back 30 years

3:09

now. Wow. Since

3:12

I took over the company, I have

3:14

given myself the best boss award. Best

3:16

boss award. I have that mug. Nice.

3:19

So that's good. I have the mug. In

3:23

the, in the old phase of the MVP

3:25

program, one of the things you could do

3:27

is you could request a letter from Microsoft

3:29

to someone to say you're an MVP. Oh,

3:32

so I send it to the same friend every year.

3:35

Oh, that's cute. Congratulations. Just to let

3:37

you know, you're an MVP in our

3:39

book. Still an MVP. Yeah. I

3:41

am feeling a little inadequate though, because I have

3:43

an R2D2, but it's smaller than yours. I guess,

3:45

I guess it's like the Emmy. Paul

3:48

has the big R2 and I have the little R2. My

3:51

R2 is falling apart. I don't know if you

3:53

can see it, but I'm a little part. Those

3:55

pieces from the R2. It's

3:57

going to teeter over. I don't know. This R2. unit

4:00

needs a little work. Our two crisis. Let's

4:03

talk about Windows 11 because that's why people are

4:05

here. We welcome all

4:07

the club members and all the people

4:09

watching on all seven count them, seven

4:13

streams. There's discode

4:15

for the club members. There's

4:17

youtube.com/twit slash live for the

4:19

youtubers. There's twitch.tv slash twit

4:23

for people who like to watch on

4:25

Amazon's money losing twitch streams.

4:28

There's kick, which is the new guy in

4:30

town. He's like, no one knows him. He's

4:32

sitting in the corner. We should make friends,

4:34

but so far we haven't, uh,

4:37

there's linked in for no apparent

4:39

reason, but it is a Microsoft platform. So that's good. It

4:42

doesn't arrive in LinkedIn as like a

4:44

sponsored, uh, message from someone. Undoubtedly. I

4:46

have no idea. There's

4:49

also Facebook, but my

4:51

favorite we're on the fascist

4:54

platform, x.com. So now

4:56

we're going to sue people who don't

4:58

watch us. If you don't watch

5:00

us, we're going to put over that buddy.

5:02

It's going to be an anti-thrass suit too. Isn't

5:05

that hysterical? What is wrong with that man?

5:08

What is it? First, you know, a year ago, he said,

5:11

go F yourself to sponsors. Yeah.

5:13

Now he's saying, wait a minute.

5:16

Hold on. Anyway.

5:18

So seven streams, pick the one you

5:21

want. Watch. We have a unified chat.

5:23

So if you're chatting in one of those platforms, I

5:25

will see it may not respond

5:27

because I don't, I only have two hands. Um,

5:30

welcome to all of you and especially to

5:32

our club to members. Now the week D

5:34

mystery continues.

5:38

Don't, don't, don't, I feel like this is

5:41

the only reason I exist anymore. Just to

5:43

make sense of this nonsense, but, um,

5:45

just to kind of recap things, everybody

5:49

knows about patch Tuesday, second

5:51

Tuesday of every month, Microsoft

5:53

issues, quality updates for

5:55

windows. Um, security updates

5:58

are included these days. and

6:00

new features, et cetera, et cetera. They

6:03

have an insider program for testing new features that

6:05

they, you know, you ignore kind

6:07

of willy nilly, but whatever, they have various

6:09

channels. And then, I don't know,

6:11

I think it was last year, sometime last year or so, they

6:14

added a switch to Windows

6:17

updates. So anybody using Windows

6:19

11 could opt into

6:21

preview updates, which

6:23

are delivered also once a month, but on

6:25

the Tuesday of the fourth week of the

6:28

month, this is the week D update,

6:30

as we call it, right? Everyone

6:33

with me so far? So,

6:37

this past year, two years, has been

6:39

kind of interesting on the Windows update

6:41

front because Microsoft keeps changing the way

6:43

that they update Windows, right? So there

6:45

are different literal methods for updating

6:48

Windows, but also just the schedule and how things

6:50

are done and so forth. And so this

6:52

year, I'm not gonna remember all of them, but the big

6:55

one is that 24H2, which

6:58

historically or typically would be delivered in the second

7:00

half of the year, was partially

7:02

delivered in the first half of the

7:04

year for people on Snapdragon X-based PCs,

7:06

the Copilot Plus PCs. And

7:08

there'll be a second release later in the year for

7:10

everyone else. I provided a

7:13

tip probably two, three months ago now where anyone could

7:15

get this if they want, but for

7:17

this little magical slice in time, we have

7:20

three supported versions of Windows, all

7:22

with roughly the same feet. The

7:24

goal is for them to all have the same feature

7:27

set. We've talked about this, right? Yep.

7:32

What else am I missing? I'm missing all kinds

7:34

of stuff, but we'll just talk our way through

7:36

this. So a few weeks

7:39

back, we had patch

7:41

Tuesday in July and that got

7:43

Windows 11, 22H2 and 23H2 roughly

7:49

caught up to where 24H2 was. And

7:52

then a couple of weeks ago, we had that week

7:54

the update and the Tuesday came and what we did

7:56

when this weekly, I actually forgot about it. And

7:59

then I think it was, was Thursday or Friday, they

8:01

delivered, Microsoft did a week D

8:03

update for Windows 11, 22 and 23

8:05

H2, belatedly,

8:08

right? A couple of days late. I mean, that's been happening

8:10

this year. This is probably the third

8:12

time that's happened. It didn't go out

8:14

on the Tuesday, but it did go out. And okay.

8:17

And you look at these updates and you see,

8:19

okay, well, this is a couple of new things

8:21

in there. Minor updates to

8:24

the start menu, the taskbar. This

8:27

is the duplicate tab thing in file

8:29

Explorer that everyone is so excited to

8:31

have. And those

8:33

features are actually not in Windows 11,

8:36

24 H2. And

8:38

there was no 24 H2 week D update,

8:42

but coincidental to that on

8:44

the same day, Microsoft put a

8:46

new build of Windows 11, 24 H2 into

8:50

the release preview channel of the Windows

8:52

update. Sorry, the Windows inside

8:54

a program. And the

8:56

new features in that update map to

8:59

the features we see in week D

9:01

for 22 and 23 H2. So

9:04

my theory at the time was August

9:06

is gonna come around next

9:08

week. Let me look at the calendar to be sure. Yeah,

9:10

next week is patch Tuesday. And

9:12

maybe this was a little off. Maybe they intended

9:14

for this to be the week D update. They

9:17

just, whatever they ran out of time, whatever, there

9:19

must be some release window, who knows. And

9:22

this is going to be what would

9:25

have been the week D update. And

9:28

so that was the story as of last

9:30

Wednesday. Then

9:33

Microsoft on August 2nd, which was

9:36

probably Tuesday, no, it was Friday,

9:38

sorry, on August 2nd. Am

9:41

I doing the wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah? Yeah, so they

9:44

released a week D update for

9:46

Windows 11 in

9:48

August. That was for July. And

9:52

it is in fact the

9:54

same stuff that was in that release preview

9:58

build. and

10:01

some other stuff, right? So this is a bunch

10:03

of new features. So that we're probably

10:05

all going to get next Tuesday or

10:08

start to get because CFR is right, which is one of

10:10

those other, you know, new

10:12

methods that Microsoft has rolling out updates, right? They don't

10:14

just blurt it out into the world at the same

10:16

time. Like the features come out randomly,

10:19

essentially, right? So we're

10:21

going to have things like the ability to drag, pin

10:24

start menu, app shortcuts down to the taskbar

10:26

to pin them there. We're

10:29

going to have the ability to duplicate tabs.

10:31

We're going to have the ability again, because

10:33

this is a regression problem,

10:35

to drag files up

10:37

to the address bar in File

10:40

Explorer and then move or copy them

10:42

to a different location in the breadcrumb bar, like we used

10:44

to be able to do. This

10:47

is not the lock screen widgets, you know, all that

10:49

stuff, right? There's a million new ways to use Windows

10:51

share. Do you get a sense that like a bunch

10:53

of people are on vacation and so like the kids

10:55

are just having a good time? I

10:58

have no sense. I have the,

11:00

in fact, it is, if anything, nonsense, right?

11:02

I mean, I don't, that's

11:05

the thing. And honestly, that's been

11:07

what, I mean, ever since Windows

11:09

11, it's been confusing and alarming

11:11

and just, I feel

11:13

like this is parallel to you being on

11:16

the show. I think, I feel like- I

11:18

show up and the whole update process. I'm

11:20

not saying it's a causal relationship, but it's

11:22

interesting that, or to my memory

11:24

anyway, I seem to recall one

11:26

of the earliest conversations we had was, hey, there

11:28

are like three different versions of OneDrive now. And

11:30

they went, oh, what's going on there? And to

11:32

this day, they've never acknowledged that that happened. It

11:34

was like that for a year, year and a

11:37

half or more. I mean, it was, you

11:39

know, and then this is when features just

11:41

started appearing in Windows that were never tested. Fragmentation

11:43

is a constant problem with a company this big,

11:45

you know? Everybody has access to code bases and

11:47

they take advantage of it. Yep.

11:53

There's kind of a bigger topic

11:55

here in a way that has to do with

11:58

Microsoft and the markets. does

12:00

well in and doesn't do well in. And the thing

12:02

that's so weird about this is, this

12:05

is not what its primary and most

12:07

important customers want at all. It's

12:09

not what almost any customers want,

12:11

but I could sort of excuse

12:13

behavior that ignored consumers to

12:16

some degree because maybe they're not as important

12:18

to Microsoft. I would get that, but. Well,

12:20

at least they don't understand it. It's funny because I just

12:22

put a Windows server show in the can for run as,

12:25

which is a good, six weeks away

12:27

or something. And one of the- Who would you

12:29

talk to, by the way? If

12:31

it was Orin Thomas. Okay, nice. Right? The only guy

12:33

I know has written more books than you. Yeah. Yep.

12:37

And it's like, he's clearly not learning. But

12:41

one of the things he's teaching other people is just

12:43

how much money server makes. Like those

12:45

servers aren't going away. Yeah. This

12:48

is the, so this isn't like the return of

12:50

vinyl, right? No. It's not

12:52

like, you know, we're not all going back to

12:54

buying CDs in stores and not using Spotify or

12:56

whatever, but for Microsoft,

12:58

because of the marketing, or maybe

13:00

marketing is the wrong word, but

13:03

it's almost like a fiduciary need to market

13:06

Azure during those many years where it was

13:08

like 70% growth, 70% growth,

13:10

70% growth. This is what drove

13:13

Microsoft's market cap up with its share

13:15

price, right? Was this

13:18

Wall Street excitement over the cloud. And

13:21

they didn't talk about it a lot. Of course

13:23

they very purposefully obscure

13:25

their financials so they don't

13:27

have any specifics. But yeah,

13:30

I mean, Azure was growing, but it's

13:32

very likely that for a lot of that

13:35

time, server was the bigger business. Making money,

13:37

money, money, money. Cause that stuff's not going

13:39

away. And it was really, to me it

13:41

was very gratifying to spend time with Orin

13:43

talking about server and active directory and like

13:45

the thing. It's like

13:47

virtually every listener to run as has.

13:50

For IT, this is like my excitement over

13:53

WPF. It's like, it's back baby. It

13:56

never went away. Really went away, but

13:58

it's back in the cloud. context again

14:00

and it never stopped being

14:02

important. It never

14:05

left anyone's budget. It's

14:07

always been there. I'm not claiming this

14:09

is purposeful, but

14:12

I think it might be. That Microsoft

14:14

all of a sudden is talking

14:16

about server, again, at a time

14:18

when Azure growth has not leveled

14:20

off, but has slowed dramatically. And

14:22

now talking

14:25

about server wouldn't have a

14:27

negative impact on analysts watching the company

14:29

for growth, right? They've

14:31

been kind of worried about Azure for a while now, frankly,

14:33

and now we have got AI. Oh, look over here, another

14:35

new thing we can wave our hands at. Well,

14:38

I think we have this terrible conflict of interest

14:40

where they

14:43

want to move the stock price more than

14:45

they want to serve their customers. Yes,

14:49

it's the enterprise and

14:51

certification. Because

14:54

it makes, all that leadership

14:56

has an awful lot of stock. And

14:59

in theory, they have a fiduciary responsibility to

15:01

shareholders. That's what the Harvard Business School keeps

15:04

telling them. And

15:06

then even when you get down to the employee level, if

15:10

your leadership is banging on about Azure,

15:12

your best promotion path is focusing on

15:14

Azure. So it doesn't matter what you're

15:16

good at, what makes money. They're

15:19

in the trap. I lived this

15:21

nightmare because the topics, the products

15:23

that I care about at Microsoft

15:26

most are client products,

15:28

right? They're what we might think of as

15:30

consumer products, but they're really not really, right?

15:32

But just client products. The

15:35

entire company had a pivot on the cloud. And

15:38

the way that happened in Windows

15:40

as a client was Windows as

15:43

a service. Let's take

15:45

this spaghetti code of legacy, well,

15:49

infrastructure, client infrastructure, and we'll

15:51

pretend it's an online service, and we'll just update

15:53

it all the time. And

15:55

it was really, really bad for a really,

15:57

really long period of time. Terry

16:00

Myerson's pay package was,

16:02

or his bonuses were based on that

16:04

kind of growth that he was

16:07

never going to achieve. They cooked the books, they

16:09

were counting VM installs. Remember they were trying to

16:11

get to a billion installs Windows 10 at one

16:13

point in some really fast period of time. And

16:18

the irony or the weird coincidence,

16:20

I guess, of all this is that honestly today,

16:22

they got really good at updating Windows. Yeah.

16:25

No doubt about it. Because now they're just, I guess

16:27

anyone with a desk can pull a switch and something

16:29

goes out to Windows now. I don't know what's happening,

16:32

but yeah. So

16:34

hopefully the, as I

16:36

see Microsoft starting to stop, stopping

16:38

to pretend that Windows Server isn't a thing, when

16:41

the Jeff Wilsley's of the world who've never went away

16:44

are suddenly back, you know, in public

16:47

again. Yes. I love that

16:49

because. Although when I did the show on the

16:51

next version of Server, he wasn't allowed to say Server 2025. He

16:53

had to say, Server V next. Well, it

16:55

was probably just the timing of the, you

16:58

don't want to, well, you know, what if they

17:00

missed the, I don't know. I hear you. If

17:02

you miss 2025, you really miss something like that.

17:04

Yeah. So

17:06

yeah, this is, this

17:09

is where we're at, right? And so we just

17:11

don't, like I said, it

17:13

doesn't make sense to me that

17:15

Microsoft does things so erratically and

17:18

chaotically because it's primary customers.

17:20

It's, it's, and

17:22

it's probably a bigger, higher percentage now than

17:24

it's ever been. But the historic number we've

17:26

always used is, you know, two thirds of

17:29

windows from a revenue perspective comes

17:32

from commercial, not from a consumer,

17:34

right? But my God, there's

17:37

been a lot of focus on, you know, Copilot

17:39

plus PC, local AI. But that's

17:41

not happening on the server side. The server

17:43

side, incremental improvements. Because what do

17:45

you want from a server but reliability? Have

17:47

they added Copilot to the Windows Server desktop

17:49

yet? Why no, no, they've not. In

17:52

fact, they're doing their very best to get rid of

17:54

the desktop entirely, right? They don't want you

17:56

to already pee into those servers anymore. They don't think

17:58

you should have a GUI there anymore. Yep,

18:01

I sure. Yeah, we're all good on

18:03

server. They're not wrong. Well,

18:05

I mean, I think one of the hot new tips of 2025 is

18:08

gonna be the same as it was in 2005, which is

18:10

how you can get a copy of Windows Server and

18:12

make it run like a Windows client, you know? Just

18:14

so you can get escape from all the terribleness that's

18:16

happening. Yeah, no, I did that at one point. I

18:18

had one of my P4 laptops, you know, the one

18:21

you could cook food on, that

18:23

I ran a server edition of, I think, 2000. I

18:25

think it was 2002. Oh yeah, no, we all tried

18:27

this at one point, I mean. Just

18:30

something, something to leave me alone. So I have

18:32

stuff to do. God

18:35

forbid. Yeah, anyway, it's so distracting.

18:38

No, it all ties in together. I mean,

18:40

honestly, those two things parallel each other, right,

18:42

so Windows was the

18:44

thing that didn't fit, it

18:46

was the square peg and everything else was

18:48

round holes. It just didn't make sense in

18:50

Microsoft. Still doesn't, right? No.

18:53

Server. Never stopped making money. Yeah,

18:56

well, the parallel there is Apple IIe in

18:58

the 80s was the thing making all the

19:00

money for Apple, but they were selling the

19:02

Mac. Yeah. You know, they

19:05

kind of wanted it to go away. The difference there

19:07

is that that transition was always gonna happen with

19:10

the server, and this is true on the client to

19:12

a little small degree, but the server especially because of

19:14

the, you

19:16

know, the nature of the cloud and infrastructure and so

19:18

forth. I mean, it was never really, it was never

19:20

going to go away. No. The question

19:22

was what the plateau was, and I think it ended

19:25

up- Is ever on the .NET world- Higher

19:27

than they thought. We deploy .NET

19:29

code to Linux instances now because it saves us 25%

19:31

right off the bat. Yeah,

19:33

nice. Hopefully they're running on Azure, but that's fine.

19:36

That's where they're running, but you can run them

19:38

elsewhere. They run fine on GCP and they run

19:40

fine on AWS as

19:42

well, but why? Right, right. And

19:45

if you've got IIS chops, app service

19:48

seems very familiar, right? Like it's not

19:50

hard to get around in there. You'll

19:52

recognize it. Right. But

19:54

on the client side, changing clients

19:56

is hard, and folks,

19:59

we've- I mean, we were joking before

20:01

the show about the difficulty of going

20:03

from a Mac keyboard to a Windows

20:05

keyboard and back again. And that's just

20:08

the smallest little corner of

20:10

that. Well, and I'm

20:12

wearing my run has had here. It's about

20:14

administering, right? It's about controlling images and controller

20:16

driver sets and common hardware sets and all

20:19

of those. I am responsible for X, many

20:21

thousand desktops. And by golly, I know how

20:23

to do that in windows. And it's not

20:25

the same with a Mac. I

20:28

have to think that Microsoft strategy, um, you

20:30

know, pushing out that 23 H two as,

20:33

oh, just a monthly update for 22 H two. Just

20:36

kidding. You know, that kind of thing, um, is

20:38

a part of a broader plan just

20:40

to beat down IT and, and just

20:42

hope that some of them just give it right. What

20:45

are they doing effectively? But it's like you can have

20:47

any update you want because they're all the same. Exactly.

20:50

Which version of windows do you want to be on? Oh, 22

20:52

H two. Sure. You can have that.

20:54

Oh, you're going to have all the new features, but

20:56

you're on 22 H do you win? I'll keep that.

20:58

I'll keep that name there. We made that concession. Yeah,

21:01

exactly. It's, it's, but it's the same. It

21:03

is. I really, it is

21:05

beautiful. I mean, it's beautiful and sad,

21:08

but man, this is, this is Orwellian.

21:11

It's unbelievable. I know. I know.

21:14

That's why, like, you know, when you said something

21:16

about making sense of something earlier on, I'm like,

21:18

there's no sense to be made here. It is

21:20

just a coping strategy and just

21:22

some form of submission, you know, it's just like, it's

21:25

brilliant also. Yeah. Like, so I'm going to get you

21:27

to use this feature. I'm just going to tell you

21:29

whatever you need to hear. Yeah.

21:32

There's it's like, it's easy to be

21:34

cynical. Um, period. It's super easy to

21:36

be cynical, big tech, uh,

21:38

Microsoft in particular, but it's hard not to

21:40

look at their behaviors sometimes and think, you

21:43

know, antitrust regulators,

21:46

they have started looking at Microsoft too, but they're

21:48

really starting to pay attention to like Apple, Google,

21:50

you know, like, yeah, well, we're going to get

21:52

into that later today. They're like, yeah. And they're

21:55

like, you know, uh, when the

21:57

ISR on is looking the other direction, maybe we could

21:59

scurry. around in here and do what we

22:01

want, see what happens. Hey, you

22:03

know what? I'm more than ever, and you made this

22:05

very clear to me, the Brad Smith

22:08

strategy works. Yeah. Right?

22:10

Those folks are looking for talking points

22:13

to get them reelected and you don't

22:15

give them. It's like, we're happy to

22:17

comply. Let's go. Now it doesn't

22:19

mean whether they are or not, but they say the

22:21

thing that leaves no talking points or doesn't make the

22:23

news. We don't know what

22:25

happened with teams bundling in the EU

22:28

exactly, I'm sure it will come out

22:30

someday, but that's the one weird exception

22:32

where Microsoft offered

22:34

concessions, then they just did

22:37

it. They didn't wait for the

22:39

EU to agree. They said, okay, we're

22:41

just gonna unbundle it. We're gonna do

22:43

the right thing. You're

22:45

like, wow, this company's really changed. And then

22:47

the EU's like, nope. You're

22:49

like, what happened? Do you just have

22:51

to do something different? Can you give us any guidance? No, we

22:53

cannot. No. What you did was wrong.

22:55

Yeah, it was just wrong. We didn't like it. So

22:57

now the EU is acting like a chat. So I

23:00

don't, you can't say. And I think, again,

23:02

that's the, Windows

23:04

N was like that. Yes. In

23:09

your effort to protect customers, has now hurt

23:11

customers, what would you like us to do

23:13

next? In the late 90s and early 2000s,

23:16

because of what happened to Microsoft with the US

23:18

government, a lot

23:20

of me and other people like me and you,

23:22

I'm sure we all had to learn about antitrust.

23:24

We had to sort of understand what was happening.

23:27

Yeah, and so we're gonna apply this knowledge later in

23:29

the show, because Google

23:31

had this big event this week, this

23:35

past week that parallels what happened to Microsoft 20

23:37

plus years ago. And I

23:39

mean, like really, it's crazy.

23:41

Like shockingly, it's explicitly paralleling

23:43

it. And I think

23:45

we all have our own memories of that time.

23:48

I cannot tell you how strong the

23:50

belief is out there that

23:52

Microsoft won that case, you know, that they

23:54

settled and they got everything they wanted. but

23:58

that's not true. That is not true at all. But

24:00

I don't know that, you

24:03

know, basically Steve Balmer got his

24:05

job and made his job the

24:07

first year he had that job

24:10

when he successfully negotiated compliance officer,

24:12

basically. But he spent a year

24:14

making it. Yeah.

24:16

The victory from Microsoft was that the

24:18

breakup order was taken off. It was

24:21

rescinded. Yeah. So that was the bad

24:23

thing. But I think the important point to know from

24:25

back then is that the guilty

24:27

verdict and the findings of facts, those

24:30

were not taken away. Those are all legal

24:32

precedent. That's those are all, no, you were

24:34

these things, but you're now complying

24:36

in a way that allows us to not have

24:38

to enforce the remedy. You know, now that we're

24:41

25 years later, I'm

24:44

not going to believe, um, what

24:46

if Microsoft were broken up? Devart's

24:49

contention was that would have been a good

24:51

thing. How many hours you have? Care holders

24:53

and everybody else. Right. So the two, the

24:56

two, um, the two

24:58

big what ifs of that era to me

25:00

are that right? Like what would two Microsoft's

25:02

look like an app? Would it have been

25:05

bad? Yeah. I, you would have seen,

25:07

uh, you know, office, by

25:09

the time windows eight was coming out, office had

25:11

already created office for the iPad and Steve Balmer

25:13

said, no, we're not putting it out. Right. Um,

25:16

the office of that era, 15

25:18

years earlier, whatever that is, would have put

25:20

it on Linux, would have put it on

25:23

the web faster, would have, you know, done

25:25

a cross platform, uh, thing that the, you

25:27

know, that the integrated Microsoft of the early

25:29

2000s would never have done the, the windows

25:31

focus Microsoft, right? That's, that's probably the big

25:33

one. Would it have been successful

25:35

as no one, you know, who cares? So, I mean,

25:37

in some ways, right? But the, the bigger one to

25:40

me is, what would have

25:42

the 2000s and 2000s tens have been like if

25:44

Microsoft was like, it wasn't the nineties companies

25:47

like Google, Amazon, the

25:49

research, the resurgent Apple to some degree and

25:52

Facebook would never have happened. Um,

25:54

if Microsoft could have Netscape those guys,

25:56

which they would have our

25:59

world would look like. East Germany today, it would

26:01

be, you know, there's

26:03

no, it would be horrible. Oh no, no. It

26:05

would be just being bingish. It would be, you

26:08

know, we talked yesterday, if it's also the 27th

26:10

anniversary of Bill Gates looming

26:12

over Steve jobs announcing that they were

26:14

going to give Apple $150 million without

26:18

which Apple would not have survived. And

26:21

it's, I think likely, although

26:23

there's some debate of this, that the

26:25

reason Microsoft did that was because of

26:27

looming regulatory action. Absolutely. Yeah.

26:30

Very recently I heard, I read somewhere,

26:32

I, I put this aside. I'm just,

26:34

I'll be able to tell you where

26:36

it was eventually, but someone

26:39

had a story where supposedly Steve jobs went to

26:41

gates and said, Hey,

26:44

you know, we've all that lawsuit

26:47

stuff around look and feel and intellectual property,

26:49

you know, it, we

26:51

could make this go away, but just so you know, like we actually

26:53

have more. And if you guys don't

26:55

agree to help us out, like we're going to

26:58

launch another lawsuit against you. And supposedly that played

27:00

a role a role. I've never heard that before

27:02

in my life. So I, I, if

27:04

this just came up recently, I was like, I

27:06

don't know about that one, but, um,

27:08

yeah. And, and there were, you know,

27:10

we'll talk about Google later, but there

27:12

were parallels between that and Microsoft and

27:15

Apple. And today with Google and Mozilla,

27:17

right? That if Google

27:19

stopped paying Mozilla, that company would probably disappear

27:22

in about two seconds. You know, it's some

27:24

90 something percent of their, uh, uh,

27:27

operating, um, uh, revenue or

27:29

cashflow or whatever it is every year is

27:32

comes from Google,

27:34

right? They pay them, um,

27:36

some hundred, I think it's $500 something million a year or

27:38

whatever it is. So yeah, there's a

27:41

lot of parallels. I'm not sure we got a

27:43

financial interest there, but uh, but anyway,

27:45

uh, but with Steve Rich's point earlier, yes,

27:47

the, um, now

27:50

that Microsoft has kind of, uh,

27:54

just, just through natural business, um,

27:56

evolution, you know, as you're slowed down, it's

27:59

still, you know, Now it's a real business

28:01

doing great, right? The

28:03

focus is elsewhere. And I think Windows Server can come

28:05

out from the shadows again and say, yeah, remember us,

28:07

we're still here. And they'll never admit

28:09

to it, but I

28:11

bet that's a huge percentage of intelligent

28:14

cloud. A huge percentage, way more than

28:16

people would imagine, because they've incessantly marketed

28:18

the cloud, right? Just

28:20

like Windows is. I mean, we don't know the exact number,

28:22

but it's probably eight to 10 billion a quarter right

28:25

out of Windows client, right? Like

28:27

consistent forever. It's just like

28:30

an enduring cash machine,

28:32

but it's treated so horribly

28:34

by this company. And

28:36

I think it's because the upper level executives have

28:38

their eye on a different price these days, right?

28:40

Which now is AI. Okay.

28:45

Windows 7, blah, blah, blah, okay. So in

28:47

the past week, not much going on with the

28:49

Windows Insider program, there was a very small build

28:51

last week in the beta channel, an

28:54

equally small build to dev, but today they

28:57

put out something very interesting and it's hard not to

28:59

believe that this wasn't purposely timed because I just updated

29:02

this chapter in the book, but

29:04

they're issuing a major update to the Windows

29:06

Store app that will eventually,

29:09

it's not public, but it's in the Canary

29:11

and dev channels. Yeah. Kind

29:14

of a, I would call

29:16

it the third major redesign of the

29:18

library part of that app. And

29:21

they're separating out updates and downloads from there,

29:23

which honestly is probably overdue. That was kind

29:25

of a mishmash or it is today. If

29:27

you go look at it today, it's actually

29:30

very confusing and they've

29:33

changed it over time so that, in fact, I'm just gonna bring it

29:35

up so I can speak to

29:37

this more intelligently. But if you go into

29:39

library today in the Microsoft Store

29:41

app, what you'll

29:43

see is a, well, a library,

29:46

but the default view is, well,

29:49

things you might need to update at the top, but the

29:52

library view itself is actually apps that

29:54

are installed on your computer right now. I

29:57

sort of think of this, I'm not really

29:59

sure why. anyone would need that view, honestly.

30:01

The default view in the beginning was your

30:03

actual library, right? So if you go in

30:05

there and click the little sort button over

30:07

on the right and

30:10

you unclick show installed products only, what you'll see

30:12

is a list of all of the apps and

30:14

games that you've ever purchased or downloaded through

30:17

the Microsoft store, including by the way, on

30:19

Xbox and elsewhere, although it is even,

30:21

I think there's even, there might even be Windows Phone

30:23

stuff in here, although they might be finally filtering

30:26

that out by now, but some of that stuff you

30:28

can't actually do anything with. If

30:31

it's from a, you know, for a different platform.

30:33

And I use this to go in there and

30:35

find the handful of like expensive apps that I

30:37

purchased, like affinity photo or

30:39

Adobe Photoshop elements so that

30:41

it can reinstall them quickly, right? Because in this case, they

30:43

both being with the letter A and they're both right next

30:46

to each other. So it's kind of easy. I can just

30:48

go click click and kind of

30:50

install it. So they're going to separate these

30:52

two functions out so that updates and downloads

30:54

will be its own view. And then library

30:56

will be its own view, which frankly is

30:58

what it, I think it's what it was some

31:01

time ago, but it's what it should be. And it will be coming

31:04

back or at least changing in that

31:06

direction. And then some other stuff that's

31:08

not super interesting about, you know, special

31:10

deals and things will pop up from

31:12

here and there. But this is kind

31:14

of a, kind of

31:16

a, not structural, but it's a big, it's

31:19

a good update. Because like I said, I just updated

31:21

the chapter in the book and I, as

31:23

I wrote, you know, this is what this is,

31:25

it was like, man, this doesn't make any sense.

31:27

Like this is, this interface actually does not make

31:29

any sense. So they're going

31:31

to fix it. So that's good. And

31:34

based on the fact that it's in canary and dev, I

31:36

will probably have it in stable tomorrow

31:38

or Friday. Cause we don't

31:40

know when things come out. That's the point. That's

31:43

what it comes out after you talk about them on the

31:45

ship. Yeah. Yeah.

31:48

Oh, did the right update his book? Yeah. Okay. Ship

31:50

it. Yeah. Make sure you change

31:52

all the graphics while you're at it. Yeah, exactly. The

31:54

one thing that's the one thing I looked at was

31:56

if these people, and you don't want to

31:58

talk like that, it's getting bad, but. If

32:01

they updated that nav bar, so I literally

32:03

have to change every single screenshot in this

32:05

chapter, I'm gonna lose

32:08

my brain. And yeah, there's a

32:10

change. So fantastic. Cause

32:12

that's what they do. Awesome.

32:18

Well, let's see. So

32:20

when did we have this discussion? Sometime in the

32:22

past few weeks, we would have talked about this

32:25

notion. And this is before, you know, later

32:28

in the show we'll talk about Intel's financials

32:30

and all the bad stuff happening there. But

32:32

Microsoft shipped or Microsoft and

32:34

its partners shipped these co-pilot

32:36

plus PCs, right? Running Qualcomm's

32:38

Snapdragon X processor, you

32:41

know, very efficient, much better battery life, very

32:44

good, not perfect, but very good compatibility seems

32:47

to solve a problem, you know, but

32:49

you know, we have to be measured

32:51

here, right? Obviously we knew and know

32:53

now even more that AMD and Intel

32:55

are going to or have now in

32:57

one case shipped some of their next

32:59

gen chips. And part of the design of these

33:02

chips is to address some of

33:04

their shortcomings compared to ARM, right? Sure. But

33:07

you also get this kind of knee jerk reaction on

33:09

the other side where it's like, oh my God, oh

33:11

my God, Intel screwed, X86 is over, you

33:13

know, and it's like, guys, guys, guys. Easy,

33:16

easy there, Jack. Yeah, settle down. But

33:19

the thing is, it's not just, maybe

33:22

we should call it X64, but X86, X64, right,

33:25

the Intel architecture, that's

33:30

not necessarily the primary

33:32

target, although obviously

33:35

we want that to improve as well, right? I

33:38

don't, in the same sense that Windows Server is probably

33:40

never really going to go away. X64

33:43

is not really going to go away. And

33:45

honestly, in the Windows world, it's probably going

33:47

to be dominant for the foreseeable future. I

33:49

don't really see that changing, but we

33:51

had people writing stories like Intel's doomed,

33:54

they don't address this right now, that if they don't do

33:56

so, they're going to have to pull a Hail Mary here,

33:58

and it's like, guys. Intel's

34:00

running into a lot of problems right now, literally because they've

34:03

been pulling Hail Mary so the past three, four years in

34:05

a row, they've actually- You said you gotta stop throwing

34:07

the long ball. Yeah, for Intel, they've been actually

34:09

moving pretty aggressively. Like, you know, one might say

34:11

too aggressively. We'll get to that. But

34:14

we know, you know, into the AMD

34:17

mobile chips right now, the AMD desktop chips are gonna be out

34:19

in the middle of the month, so about a week from now,

34:22

Intel's on track to ship Lunar Lake, which

34:24

is the mobile version of their next gen

34:26

Corelter chips in early September,

34:28

IFA. This is a

34:30

great time to be alive, if you love hardware. But

34:32

the other target, and

34:34

honestly, kind of the explicit target

34:37

is Apple and the Mac, right? And the Apple

34:39

Silicon chips, Apple or

34:42

Microsoft made it very obvious

34:44

that the MacBook Air was a target, if

34:46

not the target at the CoPilot Plus launch,

34:48

right? I mean, they mentioned MacBook Air again,

34:51

again and again, you know? And

34:54

that's not a surprise. I mean, back in, I think it

34:56

was February or March, whenever I purchased

34:59

a MacBook Air M3 ahead

35:02

of getting any of these Snapdragon

35:04

PCs, not because I need to

35:06

reacquaint myself with the Mac or the

35:08

software, whatever, but just because I wanted

35:10

to experience over a long period of

35:12

time, like, well, what are the real

35:14

advantages to this thing? And

35:17

there are very real

35:19

advantages to it. Snapdragon

35:22

X has made

35:24

major inroads into battery life and what

35:26

I'll call efficiency. They did stand on

35:28

stuff. It's still

35:30

better on the Mac. And I don't

35:34

know this for a fact, but I suspect I could put

35:36

my MacBook Air over here on the bed, go away for

35:38

a month, come back, lift the lid and it would just

35:41

come on. It's that good. If

35:44

that sounds like an exaggeration, I hear you, but

35:47

almost not. But you're delighted with the Snapdragon,

35:49

the fact that you can open it each

35:51

day and it just comes off. Yeah, so

35:53

the thing, there is a time period at

35:55

which that stops happening, right? I don't know

35:57

what it is. It's probably a

35:59

week. had this happen to you now? It's

36:01

happened to me twice. And in

36:04

both cases, it was a machine

36:06

I had reviewed and put aside and of course I

36:08

have to move on to other things. And

36:11

I opened, the first time it happened, I was

36:13

like, huh, like what's happening? So it sat for

36:15

a week or two? It was at least a

36:17

week, yeah. Yeah. It was at least

36:19

a week. So I- Now you opened it and

36:21

it's not the battery's dead, it said? Nope,

36:23

the battery's fine. But yeah, look,

36:25

we all know where we have some vague idea

36:28

that there are power management states and windows and

36:30

that there are different configurations where it

36:32

goes into kind of a light sleep, if you will,

36:34

when you first close the lid, because you may just

36:36

come back and wanna- Yeah, and it

36:38

should be right there wherever it were. But if

36:40

you leave it sitting there, yeah. Do you think

36:43

this conserved battery, it just actually goes cold after

36:45

a few days? Yes,

36:48

because one of the other, this is minor,

36:50

but it's real. With

36:52

a Mac, when you close, at least the

36:54

MacBook Air, when you close the lid, the battery

36:56

doesn't actually go down over time, which feels impossible.

36:58

I mean, it must, right? Like it must go

37:00

down by micro amounts, but if

37:02

you had 100% battery, closed

37:05

the lid, went to bed, woke up the next

37:07

morning and lifted the lid, it's 100% battery. Like

37:09

this is, it's magical. I mean, maybe

37:11

it's lying, I don't know, but it's

37:13

amazing. At Snapdragon, we'll lose

37:15

one to 3% every night. So

37:18

it's possible that maybe after a

37:20

week, it's like, oh, you've had a period of

37:23

inactivity here, we can stop whatever

37:26

it's virtually, whatever the battery standby hibernation is,

37:28

it will do that. I don't

37:30

know. So that's something I kind of want to look

37:32

into, but it's hard to test because you need to,

37:35

you need to experience it over a long period of time and you

37:37

have to, you can't just do it once. I can't just say, hey,

37:39

I did it. I know what it is now. So I'm looking at

37:41

it, but it's gonna be a while. But

37:44

still better than x86, right? Sure.

37:47

At this point, anything's better than x86. Yeah,

37:49

well, I happen to be with you on

37:52

that, but you know. We

37:54

have at least one staff member who

37:56

has an i9. I think Benito has

37:58

an i9, the 13th generation that's. you

38:00

know, frying and uh, he's got the

38:02

bug. Yeah. I don't know. Well, he

38:05

says everything's okay so far, but wouldn't

38:07

you be nervous? Yep. I would be.

38:11

We're going to, let's get to, let's hold off

38:13

and do the AMD Intel story

38:16

in just a bit so I can take a break

38:18

when you're done with the Snapdragon. Yeah. I

38:20

just, well, I just wanted to finish up the, just

38:22

the Mac bit of it because I please, especially

38:24

I think in the windows world, people

38:27

either ignore it or don't know about it.

38:29

And I, I, I am exposed

38:31

to people who are like openly hostile to Apple.

38:33

You know, I say this

38:35

a lot. I really do prefer windows to Mac

38:37

OS. I think this is the, for

38:40

all of the problems we just described some of them

38:42

windows 11. I very much still

38:44

prefer windows

38:46

to the Mac, but the Mac has

38:49

a true full screen mode that windows

38:51

lacks. It has incredible gestures that work

38:53

all the time and are awesome. It,

38:57

I, I've had weird issues with like the

38:59

laptop, surface laptop, most cursor, which I explained

39:01

that survived a reset still a problem. But

39:03

the thing, I think the thing that puts

39:06

Apple over the top for consumers, for

39:08

individuals, right? Is not necessarily,

39:10

it's not like the Mac or Mac apps

39:13

or Mac, you know, um, OS

39:15

or whatever it's, uh, well,

39:18

the hardware design, which it's thinner, lighter, et cetera.

39:20

It's that, that machine is also unbearably

39:22

magicable magically like light and thin for

39:25

its sides. It's kind of crazy. Um,

39:29

it's the ecosystem, right? It's the broader

39:31

ecosystem. Like, um, I think that most

39:33

people using a Mac today are probably

39:35

there because they started using an iPhone

39:37

and they had such a really good

39:39

experience. They started halo affecting their way

39:41

through the, uh, ecosystem.

39:43

You know, that's the question is like, you

39:45

may like windows over Mac, but do you

39:48

like iPhone over Android? Yeah.

39:50

So on that one, I'm actually mixed. I, I

39:52

like both of them quite a bit. I, I've

39:54

been actually been using an iPhone this year a

39:56

lot. And I just did this this morning. I

39:58

picked up the pixel. I'm going

40:01

to update, you know, when the new pixels come out

40:03

and this thing is like thinner and lighter and

40:05

there are parts of the system

40:07

that I really, really appreciate that

40:10

they don't have on the Apple side.

40:12

There's things on the Apple side. I really appreciate like, um, uh, what

40:15

do you call it? Airplay, which lets me use

40:17

Sonos without having to deal with Sonos, which is

40:19

a huge advantage because Sonos is terrible. Oh, so

40:21

also no, it's really broke their app, but I've

40:24

been using that. I'm in

40:26

such pain. That is, it's

40:30

there. They're in, it's inexcusable. Like

40:32

it's, it's awful. Terrible company. There's

40:34

a company that should go down with Intel to

40:36

be honest, but okay. But the thing is like,

40:38

and this is the thing that will pain people

40:40

because Microsoft can never get there with this stuff.

40:43

There's the, it's the cross device

40:45

integration stuff that is so amazing

40:48

and so impossible to do seamlessly

40:51

on windows. It's

40:53

just, there's, we're never going to get there.

40:55

And so you as an individual have to

40:57

decide for yourself if it matters, you know,

41:00

the so-called ecosystem play. You mean? Yeah,

41:02

I can copy to the clipboard on an iPhone and

41:05

paste on the Mac. Continuity. So great. I

41:07

used this example before, but at a Qualcomm event in New

41:10

York back in, I think April, I wanted to get a

41:12

photo I'd taken on the phone into the Mac and I

41:14

was like, could I? And I went into

41:16

the camera app, copied it to the

41:18

clipboard, pasted it into my notes on the Mac.

41:21

And I was like, okay, this thing is magical. Now

41:23

obviously Microsoft's working on stuff like

41:25

this right there. We talked

41:28

about file system integration over wireless

41:30

last week and file explore, et cetera, et

41:32

cetera with the Android. But you

41:34

know, if you have an iPad, which lies guys do right there,

41:36

they're kind of buying in. This

41:38

thing becomes a second display for your Mac

41:40

instantaneously. If you want it to be a

41:42

wireless display with multi-touch and Apple pencil compatibility.

41:45

Yep. You can do that

41:47

too. Send and receive text messages back and forth between all your

41:49

devices. Don't have to have your phone with you at the time.

41:51

Kevin, hold on. You

41:53

don't need to show the Apple page when

41:55

we talk about Apple. It's not an app.

41:57

This is Windows Weekly. No,

42:00

probably, but I look, but. Let's not offend

42:02

anyone here. Look, okay, sorry.

42:05

This is my, it's 2024. I

42:08

have been writing about Microsoft and Windows for 30

42:11

years this year. And

42:13

if there's anything that I do that's maybe a little different than

42:15

most of the people that do what I do, it's

42:18

that I've spent a lot of those 30 years looking

42:20

at all of the alternatives over

42:22

time, again and again and again. And

42:25

I think you have to be, and that means, you know,

42:27

I've had, I've probably had 15

42:29

Macs since 2001. I

42:33

probably own more Apple hardware than most

42:35

Apple fans. I've had almost every iPad,

42:37

almost every iPhone, almost every

42:40

iPod, almost every, not

42:42

every Mac, but most, many Macs.

42:44

And I gotta

42:46

tell you, look,

42:48

you may not want it. You may not like them.

42:51

I get that. I respect it. But you

42:53

need to understand this is, there's a bridge we're never

42:55

gonna cross on this side of the fence because we

42:57

just don't have that ability. So what

42:59

we have are, I don't wanna call them half-assed,

43:01

it's unfair, but we're always gonna have

43:03

these things that aren't gonna work as well or reliable

43:05

that will do some of the things I just described,

43:07

right? You can, if you

43:09

have a high-end Samsung phone and you can get it to

43:11

work with phone link, you could have instant on

43:14

hotspot capabilities in Windows. But you know what?

43:17

If you have a Mac, you just get it. It's just there all

43:19

the time, that kind of thing. So, yeah. We're

43:22

trying. On Sequoia, the

43:25

new phone link with the iPhone is

43:28

basically doing what Microsoft's doing with phone

43:30

link, but it works and it's really

43:33

nice. That's the one thing. I've been

43:35

paying attention to this beta stuff they're

43:37

doing now. I have to say the

43:39

ability to have a remote screen

43:41

of your phone on your PC is actually not

43:44

very interesting today. And

43:46

there are, I don't, it's only if your phone

43:48

is distant. Like most people, I would guess, have

43:50

their phone nearby all the time. So

43:52

if you get a notification or whatever, you've got it

43:54

on your phone. But if Jason Snell, for

43:56

some reason, he keeps his phone in the house while he's

43:58

doing the shows. So he- He likes it because

44:01

he's got his phone on the screen of

44:03

his computer. Can I say something though? Cause

44:05

I, yeah, I really

44:08

think despite all that, it's

44:10

merely a matter of personal preference. I

44:12

think the difference between windows, Mac and

44:14

Linux is just pure. There are pros

44:16

and cons, but I'm just, no, no,

44:18

I, my, the inspiration for

44:21

this conversation was that, um,

44:23

you guys know, I, I, the Snapdragon stuff is

44:25

awesome. Like it's, they did it. Like I, and

44:27

this, I say this after the last decade of

44:29

like, seriously, are they ever going to get there?

44:32

And it is amazing, but there are

44:34

people now we're kind of doing this victory dance and

44:36

it's like, guys, it's not over. We have this,

44:38

there's way more to do. And,

44:40

um, you know, we'll see what happens going

44:43

forward. I, the Microsoft experience works like this.

44:45

We have phone link and

44:47

sometimes it works. And sometimes it doesn't. If

44:50

you have a high end Samsung phone or a

44:52

handful of other phones, you get additional features that

44:55

everyone else doesn't get. So there's this kind of

44:57

bifurcated experience that doesn't make any

44:59

sense. The remote phone display thing

45:02

we were just talking about, if you have

45:04

that high end Samsung ultra, whatever you

45:06

get that that's cool. And you

45:08

even get a feature I don't think is on the

45:10

Apple side, which is actually very cool if you like

45:12

this kind of thing, which is you can run individual

45:14

apps in their own windows off the phone on your,

45:16

on your computer. You can pin them. You

45:19

can have them be there like apps, like alongside

45:21

your other computers. It's not just a view of

45:23

the phone. Um, I don't think

45:25

Apple's doing that. They maybe they do that

45:27

in iOS 19 or whatever. I don't

45:30

care, but, um, and

45:32

it's, so you could check that off and say,

45:34

look, see, we're doing something Apple doesn't do. And

45:36

it's like, yeah, for now and only on certain

45:38

phones, you know, and that's, if

45:40

you accept those limitations or you just

45:43

don't care or you don't like Apple

45:45

anyway, so you're not using an iPhone. So who

45:48

cares? Yeah, you're fine. Right? So in the United

45:50

States, that's about, that's less than 50% of people

45:52

now, I guess, but in the world

45:54

it's probably 75, 80, I don't

45:56

know what the percent. I think it's because of the

45:58

price more than anything else. Right. Well,

46:00

it's price and this choice, right? You get

46:03

the choice of hardware, choices. These days, that's

46:05

true. But

46:08

I think that's why Android is dominant worldwide.

46:10

It's not the top tier phones. No, yeah,

46:12

you're right. It's the $50. Same reason that

46:14

Windows is dominant in the PC space. Yeah,

46:16

yeah, yeah, yeah. It's price. I

46:19

wonder if, you know, everything, but you have

46:22

that choice. I mean, you can have a

46:24

premium Android experience. Yeah. If

46:26

you like Samsung for some reason, or maybe

46:28

I guess maybe Pixel, you

46:30

might consider to be in there. Pixel's more than bare bones. But

46:34

honestly, Android

46:36

phones aren't as diverse as

46:39

you might think. I mean, they're all, right?

46:41

It's all basically the same. There's some hardware

46:43

difference. When you pay a thousand bucks or

46:45

more, you get a better camera and a

46:48

better screen. Bigger thing that happens with Android

46:50

phones is that the carriers hijack them. Right.

46:53

Yeah, well, you don't want to get it

46:55

from Verizon. Or any carrier. Every

46:57

carrier loads up. Right. I

46:59

understand. The carols between Android and Windows are so obvious. It's just

47:02

like, you know, back in the day, not

47:04

back in the day. Today, one of the big complaints about

47:06

PCs is the junk the PC makers put on there. You

47:09

know, Windows will have a set

47:11

of features that are built into the operating system

47:13

and HP, Lenovo, Dell, whatever, will put features in

47:16

themselves that duplicate stuff

47:18

that's already in Windows, but bypasses it

47:21

just like Samsung does, or

47:23

Verizon does, or whatever with Android.

47:26

And it's like, guys, seriously. They

47:30

have different competitive aims,

47:33

right, than the platform maker or

47:35

the customer, I guess, or whatever. Yeah.

47:37

Anyway, yeah, we have the choice. We definitely have the choice.

47:39

Choice is great. And I guess, from

47:42

Apple's point of view, at least when they're talking to the

47:44

Department of Justice, the choice is Apple or something else. There's

47:48

no choice within the Apple ecosystem. Yeah,

47:51

well, yeah, that's a tough one.

47:55

I mean, if you, the

47:57

Apple stuff is actually similar the

47:59

Microsoft antitrust stuff as well, in

48:02

the sense that they are artificially

48:04

restricting what competitors can do on

48:06

their platform. And even something

48:08

as simple as, you know,

48:11

there's a 15% fee for a music service that we don't

48:13

charge for our own music service. Like it's like, guys, like,

48:15

what are you, you know, like, come on, you

48:17

know, those types of things. Or messaging apps,

48:19

they can't do everything their messaging app can

48:21

do because Apple artificially restricts that, or the

48:24

Safari, you know, court, the bottom of every

48:26

browser, et cetera, et cetera. That stuff to

48:28

me is hard to defend, but

48:31

you know, the DOJ didn't get everything right.

48:33

I mean, they sort of suggested like Apple

48:36

should make Apple Watch compatible with Android. And

48:38

it's like, guys, that has nothing to do

48:40

with their iPhone monopoly. Like that

48:42

is, that's ridiculous. So

48:45

yeah, there's, it's, you know, it's not

48:47

100% straightforward,

48:50

but. It's so funny because I

48:53

am now saying things that

48:55

are pro-Windows, but people are still saying,

48:57

oh, Leo's so pro-Apple. You have, you

48:59

can't, you don't win. There's no,

49:02

there's no way for you because on the show, you'll

49:05

be like, oh, you know, you should see him

49:07

on the Mac show. He's just, so I'm like,

49:09

I'm just saying it's a personal preference. It's the

49:11

only difference, honestly, that and price. Price is, I'm

49:13

waiting for someone to be in the thing now

49:16

and say, well, if you like Apple so much,

49:18

why don't you start the Apple Super, you know?

49:20

Like, it's like, it's like, guys, that's not the

49:22

point. I'm just saying you

49:24

have to recognize here's the good news.

49:27

What the competition is doing. There's cross-pollination

49:29

now between all platforms. So

49:31

just as you said, no matter what feature

49:33

you want on the other platform, be

49:36

patient. Cause it'll, you know. It'll, it's really

49:38

a good idea. It'll propagate everywhere. Exactly. Yeah.

49:41

Yeah. Tribalism is not that smart. Like

49:43

we're kind of past that. Yeah. There's,

49:46

it's silly to be tribal. That really is my

49:48

real point. I wish we were tribalists. Past it,

49:50

but. Yeah. No, my real

49:52

point is it's, guys, it's just your personal preference.

49:54

It's not one's better than the

49:56

other. It's personal preference. I'd like you

49:59

to briefly imagine. I know this is horrifying,

50:01

so bear with me, like how horrible it would

50:03

be to be married to me. And

50:05

what I mean by that is, I get

50:07

up in the morning and I read a comment. I think

50:09

about that all the time. I know, you should. And

50:12

I had written the article that was

50:15

the thing we were just talking about, what that

50:17

was based on. And the reason I wrote it

50:19

is because there is serious tribalism, especially in my

50:21

little community. And I wanted to get,

50:23

you know, on top of this, I didn't want people to

50:25

get ahead of themselves. Yes, the Snapdragon

50:27

X is a huge step forward. We're not

50:29

done, you know, it's not over. And

50:33

I had some people in mind when I wrote

50:35

this, like I know, because these people, they are,

50:38

they're very tribal. And this morning

50:40

when I cracked open my laptop, by the way, the

50:42

screen came right on, love Snapdragon X. Some

50:47

of those people were in there saying like, I

50:49

laughed out loud when you said that the

50:51

Apple ecosystem was better than the Microsoft ecosystem.

50:53

We have much better apps and Windows. And

50:56

it's like, yeah, I was talking

50:58

about the broader ecosystem, meaning not just

51:01

the computer, and there is

51:03

nothing on the Microsoft side. We

51:05

just have these half-assed integrations we try

51:07

to do in phone, link, and wherever else. Like we

51:09

just have the cobbled together thing that

51:11

we've always had in Windows. And that's, that

51:14

was kind of my point. So

51:17

anyway, yes. So you

51:19

can stop thinking about that little relationship,

51:21

but, sorry. All

51:26

right, let's take a break. Cause we do want

51:28

to hammer on Intel. I mean, let's- Oh, I'm

51:30

sorry. I'm sorry. What I meant was

51:32

I, this morning as I'm reading this, my wife is

51:34

sitting next to me trying to read the news and

51:37

I'm over on my laptop. Yeah. Because

51:41

people are not paying attention. Anyway, sorry.

51:47

I try to avoid the news early in the morning.

51:49

I don't want to be angry until noon. It

51:52

is now new. I have more energy in the morning. I want to get it out of

51:54

the way. Ah, I get it. Like

51:56

in the afternoon, I just be like, eh. I,

51:59

you know, That's funny. Uh, I

52:02

wake up cheerful. My

52:04

wife is the other way. So it would be like being married to

52:06

you, I guess. Yeah. I,

52:10

I wake up like Cinderella, you

52:12

know, or, uh, sleep, you know, going, Oh, it's

52:14

talking to the birds. Yeah.

52:18

Anyway, I don't, you know, it's

52:20

like, how did you sleep? It's like, I made

52:22

some mistakes. I didn't do it. You know, I,

52:24

um, I'm

52:27

going to work on it tonight. I didn't go

52:29

well at all. I don't have high hopes. I

52:32

love it. All right. Let's, let's

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take a little time out for a sponsor and

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the way, I, I do have

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56:03

Let's get to the chips. We

56:06

talked about Snapdragon, but

56:09

it is, you know, it's a three-headed race

56:11

right now. You got Snapdragon, you got Intel,

56:13

and you got AMD, right? Am I right?

56:16

Yeah, I mean, really what we have is Intel, and then I

56:18

guess there are these other companies. Sometimes. And

56:20

it's, well, it's weird to me that AMD has

56:22

not gotten more traction, although I think I touched

56:24

on this last week or the week before. You

56:26

know, Intel spends a lot of

56:28

money to keep their position in the market,

56:31

right? So I can,

56:33

I'm on the kind of other end of the

56:35

funnel. I get these opportunities to review laptops, and

56:38

it's more than nine out of 10 are running Intel

56:40

chips. You know, that's been like that for a long

56:42

time. But

56:44

my experience with AMD has always

56:46

been very positive. So I have

56:49

high hopes, and we've seen the

56:51

first reviews of the mobile version of

56:53

this new generation of processor from AMD,

56:55

and it looks like that's going great.

56:58

Intel has started talking about lunar lake a little bit

57:00

more, and we're going to learn a lot more in

57:02

September. So

57:04

everything's going great, except it's

57:06

not. So this

57:08

has been a big week or 10 days of

57:11

earnings. We're going to talk a little bit more

57:13

about earnings later, but we'll do Intel's now because

57:15

unfortunately, Intel has been suffering,

57:17

I would say for a couple of years

57:19

now with, you

57:22

know, a PC market that's been down and

57:24

a very slow and expensive transition

57:26

to this future that their CEO

57:29

envisions where they

57:31

kind of seize on and leverage

57:33

their historic strength in manufacturing, take

57:36

advantage of some subsidies that we're getting from the

57:38

US government because it's a national security concern, and

57:42

manufacture chips at home here in the

57:44

United States, right, so, and elsewhere. Not

57:46

that they've ever stopped manufacturing chips in

57:48

the US, because- Well, but that volume

57:51

and for others, right? The idea here,

57:53

yes. Specifically the high, the, you

57:55

know, extreme ultraviolet stuff. Yeah,

57:59

it's complicated. and expensive

58:01

and it's going slow. So

58:03

I, unfortunately, you know, from

58:05

my perspective, because I have to write this up every quarter,

58:08

I feel like we're in an endless

58:10

loop of underperforming. It's going

58:12

to get better. We're so close. We're

58:14

hitting this milestone soon. We're doing that. And

58:17

it's like, have we actually done anything here?

58:20

Isn't Intel still using 14 nanometer chips or is

58:22

that just my imagination? I mean, it feels like-

58:24

It feels like- They are, but they also make

58:26

other ones too. Yeah. So

58:31

oddly enough, I mean, this last quarter, the

58:33

part of Intel that makes PC chips experienced

58:36

a 9% gain on revenue, $7.4 billion. The

58:43

rest of the company, not as good, but it's

58:47

just, you know, it's just

58:49

not going well. So they

58:51

announced as part of their earnings that they're going to

58:53

lay off approximately 15% of the workforce,

58:55

which is approximately 15,000 people. They're

58:58

going to restructure again. They're going to reduce

59:00

the number of products that they produce. They're

59:02

going to stop all non-essential work. They're

59:05

going to reduce capital expenditures, which

59:08

is the term we

59:10

use to describe, I

59:13

call it building out AI infrastructure at Microsoft,

59:15

but this is the building for the future

59:17

bit, you know, a CapEx,

59:19

and their goal is to reduce costs

59:22

by $10 billion. Only,

59:24

and which is, I mean, the

59:26

issue here is when you're building fabs, fabs take

59:28

10 years to build, right? And

59:30

you're supposed to report quarterly on this? Like

59:33

that's just tough business. The

59:36

problem is you get this confluence of, in

59:38

my mind, three things, right? It's

59:41

just, they are

59:43

struggling to make the newer chips and are

59:45

having problems around all of that. The

59:48

Snapdragon came out with a big old

59:50

splash. Like everybody's real happy about that.

59:53

And then problems with the 13th

59:55

gen. Yeah,

59:58

that one's interesting to me because- because there's

1:00:01

a lot of evidence to suggest that the

1:00:03

problems they're having with these chips aren't

1:00:06

necessarily any worse than problems they've had

1:00:08

with other chips over time. But

1:00:11

I do think, I think the

1:00:13

public has gotten onto a pile on mentality.

1:00:15

Yeah, exactly. That, you know, look at Boeing,

1:00:18

like a wheel comes off a 777, thanks

1:00:20

Boeing, like that,

1:00:22

they're not the ones doing the maintenance on that

1:00:24

plane, like. Well, yeah, so obviously

1:00:27

when a company gets big enough, they are, you

1:00:30

know, there's inertia that takes over, they're just a

1:00:32

superpower, they're doing great. You also become the butt

1:00:34

of jokes, you know, it's kind of like the,

1:00:36

you know, the little indie band

1:00:38

you loved is now like on MTV all

1:00:40

the time and they're selling out tours, you're like, oh, I

1:00:43

used to love those guys, they sold out, you know, they suck

1:00:45

now. So that's, maybe

1:00:47

that's just human nature, it's kind of hard to

1:00:49

say. Yeah, I think you're right, but certainly it's

1:00:51

American cultural nature. There you go. Build

1:00:54

up the little guy until he becomes a big

1:00:56

guy, then tear him down. Yeah,

1:00:58

you're probably right. Yeah. No,

1:01:01

you're probably right. But it's just, yeah, I

1:01:03

empathize with Boeing, although there's a bunch of

1:01:05

things they really have done wrong. Yeah.

1:01:08

You know, the MCAS thing is not

1:01:10

funny. Starliner's not funny, but at the

1:01:12

plug door, not funny. But

1:01:15

the, you know, the other stuff, come on. And

1:01:17

Intel, yeah, you're right. But this is, but bad news

1:01:20

feeds on itself. This is totally. And I think it's

1:01:22

just like, we're in a time of echo

1:01:24

chambers and you get the wrong

1:01:26

echo going and you get

1:01:28

a lot of noise. That's a lot of noise. Yep.

1:01:32

So yes. And tied to

1:01:34

this, very, you know, American, but

1:01:36

capitalism, this need to grow and

1:01:38

grow and grow. You know,

1:01:40

that need is how we get things like Snickers cereal, you

1:01:42

know, breakfast cereal. It's like, wait, what are we doing? Now

1:01:44

we're not a good idea. We have to always have- Work

1:01:47

our way down the bad ideas. Yeah. So

1:01:49

here's the thing. So

1:01:51

here's some, here's some, some, some

1:01:54

good and bad, I guess, some data in the,

1:01:56

in the wake of this. Wall

1:01:58

Street, which is- akin to

1:02:01

black magic, you know, it's

1:02:03

a dance, you know, and Intel

1:02:06

spiraling the drain from a sort of PR

1:02:08

perspective, this stuff kind

1:02:10

of piles on. So the day after they announced

1:02:12

their earnings, their stock price went down

1:02:14

almost 30% in 24 hours. Its

1:02:18

biggest loss in the market

1:02:20

since 1982, and

1:02:23

its second biggest loss of all time since it was

1:02:25

a publicly traded company, which happened, started happening in 1980.

1:02:29

Its market cap went down by $30 billion. It

1:02:32

is under $100 billion for the first time since 2009, and

1:02:38

it is worth a lot less than

1:02:40

any of its competitors, most of which are

1:02:42

actually smaller companies, if you will. Nvidia

1:02:45

is worth 2.69 trillion, or

1:02:48

it was the day I wrote the sort of, TMSC 720 billion,

1:02:50

over seven times Intel, AMD,

1:02:55

tiny company, by the way,

1:02:57

comparatively, $233 billion, and

1:03:00

Qualcomm, $183 billion. All of

1:03:02

these companies, worth more than Intel. So

1:03:05

there was an analyst at what

1:03:08

I would call like an industrial

1:03:11

investment firm, you know, someone who represents lots

1:03:14

of really rich clients, and wrote a

1:03:17

letter to explain what's happening with Intel,

1:03:19

and I thought this was very measured. He

1:03:22

said, look, if this wasn't Intel, we

1:03:24

would be having a conversation now where this is

1:03:26

a going concern, but he says,

1:03:29

we gotta look at this more pragmatically. This

1:03:31

is the company that is getting subsidies from

1:03:34

the US government, contributions from partners. Oh, because

1:03:36

of the chips sack, yeah. And if you

1:03:38

look at what they

1:03:40

expect, what they're

1:03:42

doing, they will actually

1:03:45

add $40 billion of

1:03:47

cash to their balance sheet through

1:03:50

the end of next year. So, yes,

1:03:54

layoffs are bad, you know, bad

1:03:56

news, things are going slow, yep, but

1:03:58

they're doing big work. There's a

1:04:00

national security issue at stake here. I

1:04:04

coined the phrase, maybe Intel is too

1:04:06

strategic to fail. But

1:04:09

honestly, they're kind of too big to fail and

1:04:11

they're generating too much money to fail. And so

1:04:13

yes, at this moment in time, this looks horrible.

1:04:16

Yeah, well the layoffs mean they're gonna generate more money for

1:04:19

a while. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, as

1:04:21

long as they're not critical people, right? Well,

1:04:23

that was one of the little, one

1:04:25

of the things no one talks about, they expect almost

1:04:28

all of those layoffs to come in the form of

1:04:31

people who volunteer to retire early or

1:04:33

maybe it's time, you know, whatever. So

1:04:35

we'll see. This happens with big companies.

1:04:37

You get a lot of extra people.

1:04:41

I don't know how to say this in a kind

1:04:43

way. Well, everyone did it. Microsoft, Apple

1:04:45

even, although I don't think they- Apple

1:04:47

had to too and everybody's- Google, Apple

1:04:49

would never do it. Google, all the

1:04:51

big tech companies overhired. When you did,

1:04:54

well not only overhired, but then also

1:04:56

found that when we

1:04:58

have routine layoffs, conversations about

1:05:00

unions and all of that stuff- Yes,

1:05:02

that's right. That's right.

1:05:05

It's become a, I feel like it's become

1:05:07

an employee management strategy, which I find offensive.

1:05:10

I do too. I do too. It does

1:05:12

seem to be going on. I don't

1:05:14

know what other explanation there is at this point. Corporations

1:05:17

can be- It's very evil sometimes. From

1:05:19

a news cycle perspective, it's hard not

1:05:21

to look at Intel and see something

1:05:23

cratering here, but there's-

1:05:26

We'll see. Hey, how much of this do you

1:05:28

think, especially this 13 and

1:05:30

14th generation chip problem, is

1:05:32

YouTube generated? Yeah, this is

1:05:35

the thing. Right? So in other words- A

1:05:37

lot of this comes from YouTubers. This is not, this

1:05:39

is not a fact. I don't mean

1:05:41

to say I've done some investigation and

1:05:44

have found, but my belief, which

1:05:46

God, you should take that

1:05:48

to mean nothing, is that I

1:05:50

don't know that this is any more serious

1:05:52

than any other chip problems they've had over

1:05:54

the past two decades. I really don't. You'd

1:05:56

have to go back to the pendulum- This

1:05:58

could be a good congressional hearing. and say

1:06:00

like, what are the failure rates of 11th

1:06:02

gen and 12 compared to 13th gen?

1:06:04

There are sites and actually YouTube channels too, that are

1:06:06

starting to point out that like, if you look at

1:06:09

failure rates for chips, AMD chips

1:06:11

are actually way worse than these exact chips.

1:06:16

So it's hard to say, but, and by the

1:06:18

way, here's another. So Intel over the course of

1:06:20

just less than a week says, all right, look,

1:06:22

well, first of all, they acknowledged the problem publicly,

1:06:25

which they don't do a lot that

1:06:27

it has happened, but not a lot.

1:06:30

And they said, look, we're gonna do the right

1:06:32

thing for our customers. So if you bought a

1:06:35

core processor, gen 13 and 14 with a PC,

1:06:39

we're just extending the warranty

1:06:41

by two years. Don't worry about it. And if

1:06:44

you bought it yourself off the shelf, which is

1:06:46

not a huge market, you know, with individuals. Yep,

1:06:48

no, but people do it. Just

1:06:51

contact support. And the story at the time was

1:06:53

if you contact support, obviously

1:06:55

we're gonna do the right thing for you. We're not gonna leave

1:06:57

customers stranded. They'll just ship you another chip. But

1:07:00

YouTube guys, like, say like, oh, I heard from

1:07:02

a reader who called and they told me to

1:07:04

go screw themselves. They're not gonna do anything. So

1:07:06

a couple of days later, Intel's like, all right,

1:07:08

look, we're gonna extend the warranty for everybody.

1:07:11

You bought it, it doesn't matter how you got it. If you have

1:07:13

one, two years. So they're gonna provide more

1:07:15

details on that soon. And this is just

1:07:17

like everything else we just talked about. You can look

1:07:19

at this very negatively. Look, it's a part

1:07:21

of a cycle of negativity and bad news

1:07:23

around Intel. Yep, it absolutely is. But

1:07:26

here is Intel doing the right thing

1:07:28

for customers. And

1:07:31

we should at least acknowledge that too. Yeah, sure. Right,

1:07:34

I mean, it's part of the story. So whether

1:07:37

this is overblown or not, in

1:07:39

some ways doesn't matter. The question is does GirlSlinger keep

1:07:41

his job? Like, that's not gonna be a fun board

1:07:44

meeting. And I'm not gonna blame

1:07:46

him because I think we're also

1:07:48

in a market time where there is this overreact.

1:07:51

But, and you know, there's a bunch

1:07:53

of forces there. Not just the Echo Chamber that is YouTube,

1:07:56

but there are certain state actors

1:07:58

that like to emphasize anything. failure of

1:08:00

any entity in the United States. That's

1:08:02

right. I don't know,

1:08:04

I don't remember, like when

1:08:07

did he become CEO? Like how long ago was this?

1:08:09

Five years ago, not even something like that. Obviously

1:08:13

you're looking at a broken company. This is a

1:08:15

company that made the wrong bets for too long.

1:08:18

He said everything right to fix it in my

1:08:20

opinion. The problem for him

1:08:22

is that from a public perspective, from an

1:08:25

investor perspective, you've got the same face, the

1:08:27

same guy saying the same thing every

1:08:29

quarter, and it's not getting better. I

1:08:32

don't think it's his fault. He came back to Intel in

1:08:35

2021 to become CEO. Okay,

1:08:37

so it hasn't been that long. Pretty recent.

1:08:39

Steven Elop of

1:08:42

Intel. I think that's unfair.

1:08:44

And I think a lot of this- No, I actually

1:08:46

think Steven Olaf actually did- Did a good job. Oh,

1:08:48

okay. Yeah. I know, I said

1:08:50

that. It was the Nokia head who came along with

1:08:52

that. I know very few people

1:08:54

think that's true, but I think, I

1:08:56

really do think he's done everything. I

1:08:58

think that company was going right down the drain. No, I think that

1:09:01

board meeting would be scary. Well,

1:09:04

I think- There's no- His conversation

1:09:06

should be like, look, this is a five-year plan

1:09:08

or whatever it is. You have to give me that

1:09:10

time. You have to give me the five years or it's on you. We don't get there. And

1:09:13

I think we have to be honest with ourselves, whether you're on

1:09:15

the border or an investor or whatever, that it's

1:09:18

not him. No. Like, I'm not saying

1:09:20

he's doing, that there isn't some

1:09:22

scenario or some other version of some other leadership

1:09:24

and some other plan might have done something better,

1:09:26

but it's possible this

1:09:28

was not fixable. I think, I still like him.

1:09:30

I know that he's so- I do too. Here's

1:09:33

the problem. A lot of this is perception.

1:09:35

It starts with YouTubers. It then becomes a

1:09:37

stock market issue. That's when the

1:09:39

stock tanks. By the way, when we're allowing-

1:09:41

It's allowing- Influencers to literally influence

1:09:43

the stock price of it. Influence? Don't

1:09:46

let influence. No, I mean, let's, can we draw the line with

1:09:48

that, please? That's ridiculous. Anyway,

1:09:50

what's interesting about him, he's the first leader

1:09:53

at Intel, who's actually a chip engineer, a

1:09:55

chip designer. He designed a

1:09:57

3D6. He used to be a CTO of Intel,

1:09:59

right? Wasn't he previously a CTO? He, so, uh,

1:10:01

so he started Intel at the age of 18

1:10:05

as a QC engineer. He

1:10:07

was the lead architect on the four

1:10:09

86, uh, the

1:10:11

youngest VP in Intel's history at 32,

1:10:13

he was mentored by, and I'm looking

1:10:16

at his, uh, Wikipedia, Andy Grove. He

1:10:18

was CTO in 2001. Wifi

1:10:21

under him, wifi, USB, Intel

1:10:23

core, Intel Xeon 14 different

1:10:27

chip generations. I will.

1:10:29

So it's because you mentioned wifi, uh, you've

1:10:31

reminded me that I, you know, I'm reading

1:10:34

what I can about what's happening with, um,

1:10:36

lunar lake, like this next gen chip center

1:10:38

working at. And one of

1:10:40

the things that Intel is requiring for

1:10:43

this is something I have been begging for

1:10:45

for years and years and years, which is

1:10:47

that you cannot buy one of these things

1:10:50

without having a USB C port

1:10:53

on both sides of the laptop.

1:10:56

You have to have at least one of them. There

1:10:58

will be three. One

1:11:00

of them has to be on the other side. My

1:11:02

Apple laptop has two on one side and none on

1:11:05

the other. I

1:11:07

have been begging for this for a while. You'll get

1:11:09

a laptop that does do this. I have two now

1:11:11

that are like that, but this is, you know, Intel,

1:11:14

you know, everyone makes all, they have like all these

1:11:16

stupid stickers and they have specs like Evo and like,

1:11:18

what does it even mean? It's marketing nonsense. And like

1:11:20

the thing that maybe a lot of people don't understand

1:11:23

is that's part of that. They're

1:11:25

like, if you want this sticker thing, if you want

1:11:28

the chip, you're going to do this. So

1:11:30

it's Thunderbolt four, wifi seven, you know,

1:11:32

the latest Bluetooth and USB C ports

1:11:34

where they belong and the

1:11:36

fast USB C ports, not some baloney

1:11:39

USB to whatever nonsense that we

1:11:41

still see on PCs these days. Right. So then

1:11:43

they don't do everything wrong. No.

1:11:46

And I, if I were on the board

1:11:48

and it's no, I would say, Pat, you

1:11:50

know, you're, you're, you're, you're bailing out a

1:11:52

leaking ship. And this is, you

1:11:55

know, keep going. Cause you got the right, I

1:11:57

think he's got the right strategy, the dual strategy.

1:11:59

He walked up to the deck of the Titanic

1:12:01

with his little tea cup and it's like, Hey,

1:12:03

what's going on guys? You know, he, you know,

1:12:05

he, he flew in. Those days you were in

1:12:08

the wrong place. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. And

1:12:10

I, you know, you're going to give him more than three years. You may

1:12:12

not give him more than five years, but you're going to give him more

1:12:14

than three years. I think. No, let's see if

1:12:16

you can. Yeah. See if you can turn it around. But

1:12:18

it's, the situation is serious, but I

1:12:20

do think it's interesting to see that stock

1:12:24

behaviors, criticism is becoming

1:12:26

more radical, right?

1:12:28

That there, it's not, it's not just Intel.

1:12:30

It's also Boeing. Like there's, and there's other

1:12:33

companies where, Oh yeah. Well Boeing, wait a

1:12:35

minute. Boeing deserves it.

1:12:38

What's going on? Boeing deserves some

1:12:40

of it. Just like Intel

1:12:42

deserves some of it. I

1:12:44

think Boeing is a much worse story.

1:12:46

I don't disagree. Right. You

1:12:48

know, I think there should be people in

1:12:50

prison for what happened with MCAS. I agree.

1:12:52

I agree. You know, a

1:12:54

chip fries doesn't necessarily kill several

1:12:56

hundred people. Right. Yeah. Right. But

1:12:59

you know, when, when, when

1:13:01

United has failed to do sufficient maintenance on a 777, so

1:13:04

the wheel falls off and lands in a parking lot.

1:13:06

Yeah. That's not Boeing. Here's,

1:13:09

here's a, here's one a little closer to home. So

1:13:12

we had that crowd strike outage. Whole

1:13:14

world freaks out, takes days to come back. There

1:13:17

was one company that kind of stuck out there, right?

1:13:19

Delta out there, which

1:13:21

was Delta. Delta was down for several days after

1:13:24

everyone else had come back. And

1:13:26

I made a point of the back and the

1:13:29

blue. Yeah. That's what I mean. So I said early on, I'm

1:13:31

like, I said, hold on a second. Let me get this straight.

1:13:34

Every United's back. American's

1:13:36

back. Everyone's back, but you're not back and

1:13:38

you're, and then they, he came out and

1:13:40

he said that you see you have this company

1:13:42

said, you never hear anything about Apple having an

1:13:44

outage. Yeah. Because iPads don't

1:13:47

run the world's infrastructure. You're like seriously.

1:13:49

They, they, they, and apparently our strike

1:13:51

came out a $500 million lawsuit. Right.

1:13:55

Like, good luck with that. I, if I was

1:13:57

Microsoft, I would sue them for defamation right now.

1:14:00

I, CrowdStrike came out publicly and said,

1:14:02

I just want to be clear. We want

1:14:04

to be clear. We reached out

1:14:07

to Delta several times to

1:14:09

help them get over this. They never

1:14:11

even responded to us. They never even,

1:14:13

then the other day Microsoft issued a

1:14:15

statement that said the same thing. We

1:14:18

have been reaching out to Delta since the

1:14:20

beginning of this to help get them online.

1:14:23

They have ignored our help. So

1:14:26

yeah, that was Delta. It was not,

1:14:28

it was not Microsoft. Yeah.

1:14:32

So any, look, it's bad enough. I mean,

1:14:35

I, CrowdStrike, a

1:14:37

lot of people, a lot of knee jerk reactions,

1:14:39

whatever, I get it. But the,

1:14:42

again, as with Intel, you have to give them

1:14:44

a little credit for one thing. God,

1:14:47

they've been transparent. God, they've responded

1:14:49

quickly. They took credit for this,

1:14:51

not the right term, but they

1:14:53

took responsibility for it immediately. Right.

1:14:56

They didn't wait for the Senate to

1:14:58

have an investigation and figure out what, like

1:15:00

they, they admitted to it. They explained what

1:15:02

happened. They provided two, at least two that

1:15:04

I can think of major updates, including one

1:15:06

just the other day or even in the

1:15:08

past 24 hours explaining

1:15:10

exactly when what went down. They

1:15:13

work with Microsoft. They've documented what

1:15:15

happened. They've talked about fixing the

1:15:17

industry because we shouldn't let this

1:15:19

kind of thing happen. Yada, yada,

1:15:21

yada. And Delta's over there. Oh,

1:15:23

you never heard what Apple going down. Yeah.

1:15:25

By the way, you do your baby crushes working

1:15:27

fine. That's a go down. What

1:15:30

are you talking about? I

1:15:33

don't have infrastructure that you're running on

1:15:35

with anyway. I, that's insane. That's

1:15:37

like saying, you know, you don't hear about Charmin

1:15:39

going down. Like, yeah, they make

1:15:41

toilet paper. What, why would you talk about?

1:15:43

Actually, they do go down, but it's a

1:15:46

different, too. That's a different, that's a different

1:15:48

problem. Anyway.

1:15:51

Anyway. Crazy. Anywho, welcome

1:15:54

to our industry. Nice. Yeah. And

1:15:57

honestly, I think a lot of the money that left Intel.

1:16:00

in the market went to Nvidia. And

1:16:02

it's a little bit chasing AI and

1:16:05

chasing the latest fad. But even I know

1:16:07

that there's the wisdom of crowds and all

1:16:09

that, but I'm not sure. But I'm not

1:16:12

sure. First little bit of backlash, you know?

1:16:15

Their next gen is not

1:16:17

working good. It's the problems. They're holding up.

1:16:19

They're not gonna ship it. Now people are

1:16:21

gonna start beating on them, because that's the way

1:16:23

we are. We're awful. I hope we don't

1:16:25

pile on, honestly, because I don't think it's

1:16:27

attractive. And I think really,

1:16:29

to some degree, that kind of short-term

1:16:32

mentality of the stock market that companies respond

1:16:34

to, it's a source of a lot of

1:16:36

problems. It's a huge problem because you're responding

1:16:38

in sometimes to things that are not true

1:16:40

or are coming from sources you should not

1:16:42

trust. It's ephemeral. Yeah, it's crazy.

1:16:45

Yeah. Our entire

1:16:47

planet is built on this

1:16:49

shaky foundation of finances. It's

1:16:51

crazy. Yeah, and the

1:16:53

internet has caused it

1:16:55

to vibrate even more severely than it used to. That's

1:16:58

true. But can I- This would have

1:17:00

been news stories, not YouTuber. Can I tell you something

1:17:02

from the senior edge of

1:17:04

life? Yes.

1:17:07

You start to realize as you get older, it's

1:17:10

all a house of cards. It's- Yeah.

1:17:13

But it's the only house we got. It's the

1:17:15

only house we got. And

1:17:17

any- I hesitate to consider the title of

1:17:19

the book. You're eventually gonna write something like,

1:17:22

"'Everything Sucks, Nothing Works." It

1:17:25

was all a lie. It was all

1:17:27

a lie. It was all

1:17:29

a lie, yeah. But it's life. We keep going down this

1:17:31

path. I'm gonna open the whiskey early, right? It's

1:17:34

an illusion that it's all, oh yeah, this is

1:17:36

a well-run company and everything's gonna be, but it's

1:17:38

all an illusion. It's all just people. It's

1:17:41

people all the way down. And you know what? We're

1:17:43

flawed and we do the best we can. And that's-

1:17:45

Yeah, but at least we're making AI that's not flawed

1:17:48

like we- Oh, wait. Oh, dear. Oh,

1:17:51

dear. It's been a long

1:17:53

year. After investing billions to light up

1:17:55

our network, T-Mobile is America's largest 5G

1:17:57

network. Plus, right now, you can- Yeah,

1:22:00

so the one I got, black was my only option,

1:22:02

but the one I really wanted was that kind of, I don't know

1:22:04

the name of it, but it's a blue color. It's awesome.

1:22:07

And there's also a saved color,

1:22:10

not available for business. So it's black.

1:22:12

I don't mean that they're another silver

1:22:14

anything, you know? Yeah, so, you know,

1:22:16

it's whatever it's business, I guess, but

1:22:18

very specific configurations. They

1:22:20

still have core, sorry,

1:22:22

Snapdragon X

1:22:25

plus as an option on both

1:22:27

devices on the low

1:22:29

end SKUs, Snapdragon X, they're

1:22:31

not saying which one it is. I'm sure it's the

1:22:33

same one. Everyone ships and same one they ship before,

1:22:35

but whatever, prices don't seem to be any better

1:22:38

or worse or whatever than the consumer versions, except that if

1:22:40

you want 5G, you got to pay for it. It's several

1:22:43

hundred dollars extra. Yeah,

1:22:45

it's expensive. Plus

1:22:47

you have to buy one of the higher ends. You know, they

1:22:50

kind of spec it out so it's not

1:22:53

great, but it's happening. And

1:22:55

so those things are, I think they're arriving

1:22:57

in when? September, probably September 11th, which

1:23:00

is maybe not the best day to launch a product, but fine.

1:23:03

And yeah, so you could spend as little as

1:23:05

1099 for

1:23:07

the laptop and for pro. And

1:23:10

then, you know, the sky's the

1:23:13

limit. I mean, I think the 15 inch

1:23:15

decked out 32 gigs of RAM to buy

1:23:17

the storage 20 to write bucks. So, and

1:23:19

it's even more on the pro

1:23:21

side because you have all the keyboard choices with or

1:23:23

without pen, the flex version, et cetera, et cetera. So

1:23:26

you could spend three grand probably or more, I'm sure

1:23:28

on a surface pro if you wanted to. I don't

1:23:31

recommend that, but. Yeah, only on

1:23:33

the surface laptop in, this is in the

1:23:35

Canada site, in black I can get a

1:23:37

64 gig version. That's right. And

1:23:40

that's got to be 26, I bet it's 2699 in the United States. If

1:23:43

I'm not mistaken. So 36, with the 15 inch, 3,600 bucks Canadian. It's,

1:23:48

listen, I'll tell you this, you open at Lidman,

1:23:50

it comes on every single time. Tell you this,

1:23:52

I spent more than that on the studio too.

1:23:56

But I got a RTX 4060 in my studio. I

1:24:00

can tell because it keeps burning my hand.

1:24:04

Well, I mean, it's probably good for

1:24:07

Visual Studio. Yeah,

1:24:12

I know it's fine. It's a lot of horsepower, but

1:24:14

it all depends on what's using the GPU, right? It

1:24:17

gets hot. Yeah, I mean, if you're doing video. It gets the GPU. Yep.

1:24:20

It's Intel. It's warp the case on my

1:24:22

Pixel. That's how hot. Yeah, yeah. When you

1:24:24

said that the first time, I thought you

1:24:26

might warp the case on your computer.

1:24:29

Thank God that wasn't the case, but you know, warped it

1:24:31

on the phone. Yeah, I can

1:24:33

see that it's hot. It's hot, but- But

1:24:35

you can export video very quickly. There you go. And it's

1:24:37

a Pixel 6, like it's just encouraging me to get a

1:24:39

new one. Yeah, it's time. Oh, you get about one week

1:24:42

to go on that. Yeah, before the dines come along and

1:24:44

then we'll see if I run a growth in that much

1:24:46

on a phone. Yeah, I don't know

1:24:48

how fast the lid comes on or whatever, but

1:24:50

I'm probably pretty good. Yeah, phones, you know. Arm

1:24:53

chips or something. I didn't do

1:24:55

it to see if I could get the 5G

1:24:57

feature in Canada yet. I wonder if that's there.

1:24:59

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, go to Surface for

1:25:01

Business and find out. Yeah, I don't know. It's

1:25:04

a great question. I think it, you know what? I'm sorry. I

1:25:07

think I do know. I think it is, I

1:25:09

think it's US and Canada first and the rest

1:25:11

of the markets later. I think if my memory

1:25:13

serves and don't- It makes sense because our carriers

1:25:15

are pretty heavily- No, you say that. That sounds

1:25:17

familiar. Let me see. Bum, bum, bum,

1:25:20

bum, leadership timer. Hmm, I'm not sure. But

1:25:22

anyhow, I considered putting this as

1:25:25

the top story as a joke

1:25:27

today. We

1:25:29

have a lot of controversies in the Microsoft space,

1:25:32

but one of the bigger ones is

1:25:35

the new Outlook, which I

1:25:37

did an unofficial kind of poll and

1:25:39

0% of people like this app. I'd

1:25:43

have not found anyone who likes it. I will say

1:25:45

I don't use an email

1:25:47

app because, you know, normal, but I tried it

1:25:49

and to me it seems fine, but I

1:25:54

paid all email apps, so who cares? But you

1:25:56

know, it is the Outlook thing, integrated email calendar.

1:26:00

contacts, tasks, et cetera, et cetera, all in

1:26:02

one interface, et cetera, et cetera. You

1:26:04

know, based on web technologies, it seems to really rub people

1:26:07

the wrong way, but that's what

1:26:09

all the modern apps are doing because that's

1:26:11

in office in particular, that's the extensibility model.

1:26:14

I mean, it's gonna be web-based, guys. Like,

1:26:17

that's where everything is. So you

1:26:20

don't have to get it right now.

1:26:23

You don't have to replace the thing you're using.

1:26:25

If you're a consumer, you might be using mail

1:26:27

and calendar in Windows 10 or 11. God help

1:26:29

you if that's true, but you might be. And

1:26:32

if you're in a business or a business user, you're

1:26:34

probably using the, I

1:26:36

hate to say it this way, the now legacy Office

1:26:39

Classic or whatever we're calling it, which

1:26:42

is much more powerful and full-featured and

1:26:44

bigger and heavier and complicated and all that stuff.

1:26:46

But, you know, everyone, a lot of people seem

1:26:48

to like that app, and I think that's part

1:26:51

of the problem. So this

1:26:53

is like what a really popular band gets a new

1:26:55

lead singer and he doesn't look or sound anything like

1:26:57

the other guy and people are freaking out like what

1:27:00

is happening here. So anyway,

1:27:02

it's GA, which means it's not in preview. You're

1:27:04

not gonna see a little pre-tag on the icon

1:27:06

anymore, but they will

1:27:08

not replace Classic Outlook or whatever they're calling that for

1:27:10

a couple of years at least, I think it was

1:27:12

2029, if I'm not mistaken, at

1:27:15

the earliest. Yeah, because I cannot

1:27:17

stand this new outlook. Yeah. Yeah.

1:27:20

Like I said, I've not run into anyone who's

1:27:22

been like, oh no, it's okay. No,

1:27:25

it's really not. The reaction is literally, I hate

1:27:27

it with everything in my being. Yeah. Everything I

1:27:29

want to do. And they always have like a

1:27:31

list of what they need. You

1:27:33

know, what does it want to do? You want to

1:27:35

do something like, what do you want to be offline? Like a princess?

1:27:37

I mean, what's your problem, man? You

1:27:40

know, like, that's so weird. But,

1:27:42

you know, the new outlook is

1:27:44

great unless you want to do email. Unless you like

1:27:46

email, yeah. Unless you need email. Exactly.

1:27:50

It's not a thing. Oh, geez. Crazy.

1:27:55

So, moving along, I guess.

1:27:57

Here we go. Yeah.

1:28:01

So big week, um, biggest

1:28:04

antitrust ruling in 20 years

1:28:06

plus since Microsoft's, uh, 99,

1:28:09

I think truly. Yeah. Google was

1:28:11

found guilty of abusing or a of having,

1:28:13

well, not Google has a search monopoly that

1:28:15

is now a legal finding of fact. Yeah.

1:28:17

Um, that's also just common sense. You just

1:28:19

have to look at their usage share numbers.

1:28:22

You get it. Yeah. Um, Google

1:28:24

was also found guilty of illegally abusing

1:28:26

that monopoly. And what that means is

1:28:28

they are maintaining and or

1:28:30

growing it through means that have nothing

1:28:32

to do with making the product better.

1:28:34

They're using their power to hurt competitors

1:28:36

and harm partners and in effect

1:28:38

harm consumers as well through higher prices because of

1:28:40

monopoly. One of the many things they can do

1:28:43

is raise prices indiscriminately.

1:28:45

There's no competition, which

1:28:48

the judge made a really long and good point

1:28:51

of making by comparing them to Microsoft.

1:28:53

So which was kind of tough. I

1:28:55

remember James Barksdale back in the old

1:28:58

Netscape soups pointing out people here using

1:29:00

interx the

1:29:17

ad business and they don't have a monopoly

1:29:19

on the ad business. Yeah, but they, but

1:29:21

they're intrinsically tied. So there's, there's, if you

1:29:23

look at every point in alphabet or Google's

1:29:25

earnings, and so if you look at that

1:29:28

part of the business ads

1:29:31

overall, or I think last quarter was 74%

1:29:33

of their revenues of their revenue, but yeah,

1:29:35

but if you look at the overall ad

1:29:37

market, they're a big player, but they're not

1:29:39

the only, no, right. But, but because, see,

1:29:41

but they do have a monopoly in search.

1:29:44

And so this is the product tying thing.

1:29:46

In other words, they're, um, you

1:29:49

know, they've tied these two things together

1:29:51

and they've created kind of a virtuous

1:29:53

cycle for themselves from a financial sense

1:29:56

because, um, they've

1:29:58

gotten really good at this, right? They're really good. And

1:30:01

they also partner with platform makers,

1:30:03

companies like Apple and Samsung and others that make

1:30:06

Android phones. And they

1:30:08

partner with browser makers, most notably Mozilla,

1:30:10

like we know about this. And to

1:30:13

ensure that Google search is the default

1:30:15

because most

1:30:17

people just don't even think about switching, right?

1:30:19

No, because there's only one. Yeah,

1:30:22

I mean, but this

1:30:24

feeds on itself. And so this notion that

1:30:28

they're kind of paying to play, but

1:30:31

they get the users from that, that

1:30:33

helps them improve the search, which they do.

1:30:36

And search gets better, more people wanna use

1:30:38

it. That's the virtuous cycle. The

1:30:43

problem is that's illegal when you have

1:30:45

a monopoly. And this is in the documents.

1:30:47

I mean, I think it was 2022, I think it was

1:30:49

last one, over

1:30:53

$20 billion, it's been going up every year. The

1:30:57

rumor, there was a story that last year it

1:30:59

was 23 billion to Apple.

1:31:01

For Apple, this is 23 billion

1:31:04

and raw profit. They don't have to do a thing. There's

1:31:07

no research and development. There's no engineering, there's

1:31:09

no nothing. They just take the

1:31:11

product as it is. It's great, works well,

1:31:13

whatever. Everyone thinks those guys hate each other,

1:31:16

surprise. Yeah, I have 23 billion

1:31:18

reasons not to hate you. Yep, and

1:31:22

Apple, Apple's Apple, they still would like to replace

1:31:24

them if they could, but they look at like, what would it take

1:31:26

for us to create or- More money than that. Yep,

1:31:28

and that's to me with the most interesting

1:31:30

thing that comes out of this is the

1:31:33

Microsoft connection because Microsoft connects to this in

1:31:35

two major ways. One

1:31:37

is the legal precedent because

1:31:39

this case is exactly like the DOJ

1:31:41

case against Microsoft in 1998 or nine

1:31:44

or whatever year that was. And

1:31:48

because Microsoft is the only other major company

1:31:50

that has a search engine that might compete

1:31:52

with Google, except that they have 6% of

1:31:55

the market compared to 90, whatever it is. And I

1:31:57

would argue that it's not a competitor in the search

1:31:59

engine space. kind

1:34:00

of stuff. So, you know, at

1:34:02

the end of the day, well, and to be clear,

1:34:04

like they genuinely had a better search algorithm. Like

1:34:07

Google did Google produce better results. There were

1:34:09

other searches when they were first coming on.

1:34:11

There were, you know,

1:34:13

I don't remember everything, but you know, being

1:34:15

here and covering this for the, for the

1:34:17

duration, I mean, there were, there were moments

1:34:19

in time where Microsoft did something that

1:34:22

was like, okay, like, you know, that that's interesting. You

1:34:24

know, they would come up with these kind of a,

1:34:26

I guess I'll call them vertical search, things

1:34:30

that were very interesting, whether it was

1:34:32

windows live search at the time or Bing, eventually, whatever,

1:34:35

where they did a better job in some, to

1:34:37

some capacity for certain things, you know, Microsoft

1:34:40

has the power defaults

1:34:42

working for them in windows

1:34:44

with edge, right? It's the default there.

1:34:47

It's now being used by Copilot,

1:34:49

of course. And to your

1:34:52

point, Richard, I think there's a coming

1:34:54

battle over whatever we call

1:34:56

this thing, but I look at it

1:34:58

as a combination of AI and search

1:35:00

and whether it's AI making search better

1:35:02

or search making AI better or both.

1:35:04

Right. I mean, there's other angles you

1:35:06

could have gone at this on like,

1:35:08

look, I don't search on Google for

1:35:10

products anymore. I go to Amazon. Yeah.

1:35:13

Right. I, they, that

1:35:15

there is a fragmentation of the search market, but only

1:35:17

if you look at it in the ways that people

1:35:19

actually use it. So that

1:35:21

being said, like I don't have a

1:35:24

problem with declaring those guys a monopoly,

1:35:26

like you kind of earned it and

1:35:28

they have been distinctly anti competitive. They

1:35:30

have done everything they can to suppress

1:35:32

competition in their primary space. The

1:35:35

way that people kind of react to

1:35:37

these stories, like the dominant big

1:35:39

tech companies is very interesting to me, right?

1:35:42

Some companies get a pass by

1:35:44

a very large percentage of the audience, like Apple. This just

1:35:46

happens to Apple at the time. It's like, what are you

1:35:48

talking about? Like, dude, if you want to talk about a

1:35:51

past, they love the environment. They

1:35:53

are, you know, they're good people. They, you know, they,

1:35:55

you know, Google, it's like, oh yeah, screw that. Like

1:35:57

they're horrible, you know, but the thing

1:35:59

is, Like they're,

1:36:01

they're, they're all companies guys. Like, I mean,

1:36:04

come on. And they all follow a very

1:36:06

familiar pattern of abuse once they're dominant. And

1:36:08

that dominant, that abuse is what makes their

1:36:10

dominance persist and what makes their

1:36:13

dominance grow, right? And there's a real fear now with

1:36:15

AI that this will keep happening and it will, I

1:36:17

mean, we're not going to prevent it. There's no doubt

1:36:19

about it. But the, but the thing I try to,

1:36:21

I finally, I call it, I think of this as

1:36:23

a paradox. This is probably not the right word, but

1:36:26

people have trouble with things that they believe

1:36:28

are mutually exclusive, like I

1:36:30

could say something negative about Google and

1:36:32

I could say something positive about Google.

1:36:34

They can both be true, right? Like

1:36:37

Google objectively has the best search engine

1:36:39

on the internet. I think most people

1:36:41

would agree with that probably or not

1:36:43

strongly, but whatever. Google

1:36:45

also has behaved in extremely

1:36:47

anti-competitive ways to undermine

1:36:49

their partners, their competitors, and they've

1:36:52

harmed consumers in doing it. Those things can

1:36:54

both be true. Yes. They

1:36:56

both are true by the way, but you know,

1:36:59

and that's true of Apple was true of Microsoft

1:37:01

back in the day, you know, we integrated internet

1:37:03

Explorer into windows and it benefited.

1:37:05

It benefits consumers. Here's the list of ways in

1:37:07

which it benefits them. They're like, yeah, okay. I

1:37:09

mean, we can kind of go back and forth

1:37:11

and whatever, but you also integrated

1:37:13

it into windows in such a way that

1:37:15

it disadvantages competitors because they can't be integrated

1:37:18

with windows to the degree that you are

1:37:20

and the default experiences you when you're not offering a

1:37:22

way to switch and you're using

1:37:25

your market power with windows to gain entry into

1:37:27

this market. And so your defense is, well, it's

1:37:29

so heavily integrated. Now we can't remove it, which

1:37:31

you didn't make the story better. This

1:37:33

is where Google and Microsoft diverge and where

1:37:36

Apple and Microsoft connect because Microsoft during that

1:37:38

trial was the judge said, Hey, you guys

1:37:40

should sell a version of windows that doesn't

1:37:42

have internet Explorer and Bill Gates was like,

1:37:44

yeah, let's do it. Rip it out. And

1:37:46

then they shipped this version of windows. It didn't work. And he's like, what

1:37:49

are you doing? And he's like, I didn't

1:37:51

ask you to ship a broken product. He's like,

1:37:53

you told us to take it out. That's what

1:37:55

happens because you artificially engineered it in such a

1:37:57

way. Right. And that's what Google's doing in

1:37:59

the. you right now, right? It's the same thing. It's like,

1:38:01

well, you told us, we're just meeting the letter. We did

1:38:03

what you said. It's called the

1:38:05

malicious compliance. Yeah. This is how children

1:38:08

behave. Like that's ridiculous. So Google

1:38:10

didn't do that. Google didn't release a version of the

1:38:12

search engine that brought you to the wrong page or

1:38:14

give you the answers to the wrong question or whatever.

1:38:16

But you know, they're, the tactics

1:38:18

are all basically the same. Uh, the, the

1:38:20

reason they are there, the

1:38:23

reasons they're there are basically the same. Right?

1:38:26

So yeah, you know, fun.

1:38:30

For me, it's like a deja vu,

1:38:32

you know, it's a, we're back

1:38:34

again. We're doing it. Well, at the same time, it's

1:38:36

like, how did you let yourself get here? Well,

1:38:40

I don't, how do

1:38:42

you not fall into this trap as a, you

1:38:44

can, there's no version of, Oh

1:38:46

no, we don't just keep reaching for more

1:38:48

money. Yeah. You know, every tech company sucks

1:38:50

when they lead. Yep. They, as long as

1:38:52

they're chasing, they're fine. But the moment they

1:38:55

lead, Oh yeah. This was,

1:38:57

this is, uh, Richard knows this better than anybody,

1:38:59

but one of the big myths in the Microsoft

1:39:01

space is that once Microsoft

1:39:03

obtained, uh,

1:39:05

uh, monopoly, I guess we'll call it our dominance

1:39:07

in the web browser, or market, they stopped working

1:39:09

on the product and they let us sit there.

1:39:11

And that's when Mozilla first came in with Firefox

1:39:13

and we're, you know, eventually Phoenix, Firefox, whatever. And

1:39:15

then eventually Chrome, of course. And by the time

1:39:17

they kind of got their Mojo back and started

1:39:19

working on IE, again, it was too late and

1:39:21

then he switched to edge and it was too

1:39:23

late. And then they changed edge or something new

1:39:25

and it's still too late. Basically. Although they don't

1:39:27

know. The question you have to know, what were

1:39:29

they doing? They were working on.net. No, they weren't. They

1:39:33

were, I thought they moved on to WPF. Didn't they? They

1:39:35

were. Remember WPF wasn't supposed

1:39:37

to be in.net that happened later. Okay.

1:39:39

And let's get crazier and really talk

1:39:42

about what we're talking. Wait, what, what

1:39:44

it became WPF. Yep. What

1:39:46

they were actually doing was re re

1:39:48

engineering HTML and right entirely.

1:39:51

Because that windows shell was going to be based

1:39:53

on something like HTML. And they, and they, and

1:39:55

I think Bill had in his mind

1:39:57

that he wanted to come up with a better web. but

1:40:00

this was the beginning, first we'll make it work on

1:40:02

Windows, then we'll make it work everywhere. It would be

1:40:04

just like the web, but there'd be like a start

1:40:06

button in the corner. There you go. And it had

1:40:08

a little Microsoft logo on it. Yeah, and a dollar

1:40:11

goes to Bill every time you click on it. Yeah,

1:40:13

exactly. Is there a cash register in

1:40:15

here? Yeah, no, because it was- What's the sound scheme? They

1:40:17

literally kept that team together. And

1:40:19

the kicker was that Bill was chief architect

1:40:21

then. He just stepped down as CEO as

1:40:23

all that went on. So, arguably

1:40:26

had entirely too much time to work on

1:40:28

that. This was the presentation part of what

1:40:30

would have been a bigger strategy around, database

1:40:32

file systems and, I

1:40:36

guess computer, internet, whatever communications, et

1:40:39

cetera, et cetera. Well,

1:40:41

and the code name was Avalon for

1:40:43

a reason, right? It was the Paradise.

1:40:46

Right, it still is, baby. I

1:40:48

was just playing around in it today. I

1:40:50

love WPS. Yeah. It's

1:40:53

still Paradise. It's not perfect, but

1:40:55

yeah. What

1:40:58

else is happening in our world? Oh, and this

1:41:00

is only sort of related, but this is gonna

1:41:02

start impacting people. So, Google's been threatening to roll

1:41:04

out Manifest

1:41:06

V3 for several years,

1:41:09

which isn't actually the problem. The problem is when

1:41:12

they obsolete Manifest V2, which

1:41:14

is the manifest that extension

1:41:16

makers use to block ads and trackers

1:41:18

in Chrome and also Chromium based browsers,

1:41:21

right? Well, in other browsers too, is

1:41:23

that Chromium, I'm sorry, Safari and Mozilla

1:41:26

as well. So, this

1:41:28

past month, they quietly slipped

1:41:30

into some really stuff somewhere. They're actually, they have a

1:41:32

schedule for this now. They're doing it. And

1:41:35

one day, week to go, something like that.

1:41:38

If you went to the Chrome web store and you

1:41:41

look for what are the best security products, they have

1:41:43

a little section up there for Chrome. Number one, you

1:41:45

block origin. Google loves it,

1:41:48

but then you click on it and there's a warning at the top of

1:41:50

the page that says, this doesn't conform to

1:41:52

our security principles anymore. We're getting rid of this.

1:41:55

This is gonna stop working soon. And

1:41:58

the problem is that this thing of course uses man. and

1:42:00

they're switching to V3. So

1:42:02

what the UBlock folks did

1:42:05

was they created a different version called, I

1:42:07

think it's called UBlock Lite that

1:42:09

will work with V3. They

1:42:11

claim it's dramatically less effective. I've

1:42:15

talked to a few people, I guess maybe that's

1:42:17

not too many, but who said this works exactly

1:42:19

the same, it's fine. And over

1:42:21

the past few years, a lot

1:42:23

of these companies like the guys from Ghostry have come out a

1:42:25

lot to talk about this. I think

1:42:29

the EFF, which I believe makes privacy badgers

1:42:31

talked about this, it's

1:42:34

actually possible to, this is a lot like

1:42:36

the kernel access stuff in Windows that crowds

1:42:38

cars trick, you know, like it's possible in

1:42:41

V3 to actually do pretty effective blocking, it's

1:42:43

okay. But this is

1:42:45

happening. So for the short

1:42:47

term, unless you're Microsoft, if you're using

1:42:49

edge, you're screwed, but if you're on any other chromium

1:42:52

based browser, they're gonna keep the V2 stuff going as

1:42:54

long as they can, you know, they're already forking chromium

1:42:56

as it is, but they'll keep

1:42:58

that stuff working. They

1:43:01

will continue working in Firefox, they're on their own thing.

1:43:04

I don't know anything about Safari, but I assume they're doing something

1:43:06

similar. So if you like and use

1:43:08

Ublock origin and you're on a different browser, you're gonna be

1:43:10

okay, at least for some amount of time. But if you're

1:43:12

using it on Chrome, I mean,

1:43:14

that's sending some mixed messages, isn't it? It's like, I

1:43:16

want to use the worst possible browser with the best

1:43:18

possible, like what are you doing? Like just use pray

1:43:20

for crying out loud, it doesn't even need this thing.

1:43:24

But anyway, that's happening, so just be aware of that,

1:43:26

because I think a lot of these other extensions

1:43:29

are gonna start running into some issues soon as

1:43:31

well. It's not gonna be just- When you wonder

1:43:33

if the fork will be long-term, right? You

1:43:36

know, forks often happen just to maintain compatibility,

1:43:38

but at some point, you know, we could

1:43:40

see a Firefox or somebody just never come

1:43:42

back to take on

1:43:45

Manifest3. Well, even so, even something

1:43:47

like Brave, right? So Brave said,

1:43:49

yeah, we're gonna keep maintaining this as long as

1:43:51

we can, but they can't promise forever, right? So

1:43:53

there's gonna come some point- There's gonna be important

1:43:55

features they have to have. Yeah, like Chromium will

1:43:58

itself evolve to the point where the- V2

1:44:00

stuff work that they've kept going is not gonna work

1:44:02

anymore. So somewhere down the road, it's gonna be. There's

1:44:04

gonna be things in Chromium you now need to have,

1:44:06

probably security related. And the only way to get them

1:44:09

is to merge the line again. And that means you're

1:44:11

getting an anafestor. Yeah, which is why you should use

1:44:13

Brave because you don't need this thing anyway. Who cares

1:44:15

if they support V2? It doesn't need it. It's

1:44:18

built right in. But

1:44:20

yeah, anyway, that's happening. And

1:44:22

then Microsoft, I think, you

1:44:25

know, in the same way that Microsoft releases updates

1:44:27

for Windows 11 all the time, I

1:44:29

feel like now they're on a little cycle where they

1:44:32

spin a wheel and it's like, all right, three days from now we're

1:44:34

gonna talk about security again. And they

1:44:37

just keep, I don't want anyone

1:44:39

to forget that we're really serious about security.

1:44:41

I know we say that a lot, but we're really

1:44:44

serious about security. They were making their

1:44:46

security the top priority of the company

1:44:48

back in November, I think it was with that

1:44:50

new SDI or whatever the thing is called. They

1:44:54

announced in May, right, tied the bills,

1:44:56

there was a big push in Windows

1:44:58

11. Security is our top

1:45:00

priority. That Clark

1:45:02

CrowdStrike thing happened. So what do we find everybody? We're

1:45:04

super serious about security. And to prove that we're gonna

1:45:06

fix this problem with the industry, because we love you

1:45:09

guys. We don't want this to happen anymore. And

1:45:11

a memo leaked from Microsoft

1:45:14

internally. Microsoft, by the way, has a

1:45:16

Chief People Officer. What's the?

1:45:18

Again, kind of wonder. That's just the new

1:45:21

age name for HR, that's all. Okay,

1:45:23

yeah, okay, the guy who fires people. Yeah,

1:45:25

it's the HR. He literally walks

1:45:27

around wearing a Darth Vader costume just to make

1:45:29

a deal with his job. He's a people person.

1:45:32

I'm a people person. It's like, who does he,

1:45:34

who does he respond? Like, who's

1:45:36

his direct report? I do not believe.

1:45:38

Yeah, he's like, I don't know what

1:45:40

else to deal with again. Faith. So

1:45:43

he sent out an email to everybody at

1:45:45

Microsoft and said, look, I just wanna remind

1:45:47

everybody, we're super serious about security and

1:45:50

we are going to base

1:45:52

your future earnings as an employee

1:45:54

on how well you conform to this.

1:45:56

This never ends well. Google did this

1:45:59

with social, which. which caused created

1:46:01

Google Plus. I

1:46:04

think Meta did it with the

1:46:06

Metaverse. Look how well that's gone.

1:46:11

I hope Microsoft's sincere about this. It's iconic

1:46:13

that it's right out of the crowd strike

1:46:15

thing. The guys in the AI division are

1:46:17

all like, hey, are we actually gonna do

1:46:20

this? And they're like, no, that doesn't affect

1:46:22

me. Not only about that. It is interesting

1:46:24

how they essentially have to do internal memos

1:46:27

in public, right? That's

1:46:29

the only way to make it real. Yeah, that's right. This

1:46:31

is the perfect way. That's a good point. Because

1:46:34

you really want, we have

1:46:36

said we are serious about security several times in the

1:46:38

past few months and no one seems to believe it.

1:46:40

Anyone think of a more effective way to communicate? Why

1:46:42

don't they believe it? I wonder why. Yeah, here's an

1:46:45